Gigging without a PA

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1476990441' post='3159100']
so we've got less kit than a band with a vocal pa,guitar amp and bass amp big enough to use as the FOH.
[/quote]
[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1476994011' post='3159140']


How do you monitor the bass and guitar?
[/quote]

What I'm saying is even with our small amps for monitoring and our PA we have less bulky kit than the typical pa tops, 4x10 bass and 4x12 guitar setup.

In my old band we have gigged with a single LD Maui pa tower, roland V drums, variax guitar and an electric upright bass, near silence on stage!

Edited October 20, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[Dad3353]

You really are a funny old lot, sometimes. My bass drum needs no amplification whatsoever, and is, in itself, by concept, a 'sub'. We sometimes add a spot of 'kick' (but not the low end...) into the tops, just to 'integrate it a little, not to make it louder. We don't play LOUD; we play at reasonable volumes (it's rock, but the idea is not to pin folks to the back wall...). Yes, we could go amp-less and use an electronic kit. The net result for us, with the new PA, plus in-ears, mics, stands etc, would be an expense with no real benefit, as we already have a satisfactory result.
Why can it not be understood that there can be several solutions, and several interpretations..? Yes, I'm 'old school' mainly (but not only...) because I'm old..! I've known how to do this successfully (modestly...) for close to fifty years. I've spent almost as much time behind the desk, both for FOH, monitoring and lights, as I have drumming. I've toured most of France with Kiemsa, and played all sorts of dates with The Daub'z, without counting the weddings and functions as a duo, or with a swing band, and the several years assisting with our local summer festival, Les Trois Elephants. No, this not bragging; just suggesting that, if I'm no longer [i]au parfum[/i] of the latest trends, pubs is pubs is pubs, and there are more ways to skin a cat.
You are, indeed, a funny old lot, sometimes.

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm sure I've read a similar quote regarding the British motorcycle industry

Edited October 20, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[TimR]

I think if the RCF are full range an you're not carrying extra subs then that is an ideal solution.

Our guitarist has a 2x12" and I have 2 2x10". Guitar gets miked up. But our tops are only 10". We did have some Makie 15" but they got too much weight for the guitarist to lug around just for vocals.

I'm not sure we need to mic up the kit, although with a digital desk with decent onboard processors and someone who knows how to use them, I can see that being a good idea. BUT that's a lot of money to outlay for playing in pubs.

I suppose it really depends on what you're expecting to present to the audience.

Edited October 20, 2016 by TimR

[EBS_freak]

There are other options to the RCF - like the Yamaha DXR15 - that will also pack a punch for less money than say the 745s. Still light enough too.

Miking up the kit is great, especially with a digital kit because it enables you to add in the all elements that you would hear on a studio mixed kit and instead of a flabby, boxy sounding kit, you can have a real fat kick.

The biggest plus for me though, is that I hate hearing bands where the guitarist is taking your face off if you are standing in front of his amp... yet you can't hear it if you stand off axis... or if you happen to be three or four people deep in the audience. If you put everything through the PA, everything can be heard a lot more clearly... and more likely to be a decent mix wherever you are standing in the pub.

That can only be a good thing, right?

[TimR]

I think we have the DXR10s.

I'm in Dad's camp though. For the size of audience we play to if the 'stage' sound is balanced we know that the audience is hearing a decent sound.

When I played in a function band it was different, you're trying to fill a dance floor of 200-300 people. You need a full PA support for that.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477003364' post='3159266']
I'm in Dad's camp though. For the size of audience we play to if the 'stage' sound is balanced we know that the audience is hearing a decent sound.
[/quote]

Thats the point though... depending upon where the audience members are, the sound can change dramatically. When the band is going through the PA, this problem is greatly reduced.

Audiences don't tend to stand on stage either - so aren't going to get the stage sound!

Edited October 20, 2016 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1476999783' post='3159238']
I think if the RCF are full range an you're not carrying extra subs then that is an ideal solution.

Our guitarist has a 2x12" and I have 2 2x10". Guitar gets miked up. But our tops are only 10". We did have some Makie 15" but they got too much weight for the guitarist to lug around just for vocals.

I'm not sure we need to mic up the kit, although with a digital desk with decent onboard processors and someone who knows how to use them, I can see that being a good idea. BUT that's a lot of money to outlay for playing in pubs.

I suppose it really depends on what you're expecting to present to the audience.
[/quote]

All of what you just said is exactly it, like most bands we don't just do tiny pubs so the outlay isn't just for tiny pubs, once you've got it you might as well use it even in a tiny pub.

The point I am trying to make is that we aren't lugging anything just for a pub, it's more compact than a slightly smaller PA and a pair of big amps as back line, the back line is essentially our monitoring regardless of the size of the venue, if we had in ears for the wedding gigs we'd use them in the pub to save even more room and retain the same FOH sound we'd be providing for a decent paying function gig.

[TimR]

For the majority of gigs we play the difference between the 'dance floor' and the 'stage' depends where the monitor/PA speakers are positioned making an imaginary line on the floor.

At most our audience are standing 10-15m away from the band. They hear what we hear.

The answer to the OP is no. Every situation is different and you have to purchase your gear bearing in mind the usual type of gigs you play and then tailor your gear to match the size of audience and venue.

Edited October 21, 2016 by TimR

[WalMan]

From the entirely opposite direction I saw GUN at the Wedgewood Rooms last night and they had at most one small combo on stage.

Bass player had a Sansamp & tuner in a rack and one guitarist had just a Kemper sat on top of a flightcase and no cabin sight, so really it was just the kit coming off stage and everything else through FOH. Stood near the front in the middle it was a little unusual. Great gig though

[stingrayPete1977]

If you've got to have a PA for vocals then I can't see a reason why you wouldn't make it a good one that can do all your gigs, less clutter to store and no need to worry about which kit to take.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477034551' post='3159320']

At most our audience are standing 10-15m away from the band. They hear what we hear.

[/quote]

There's an echo in here. They don't for the reasons I have explained previously.

[Phil Starr]

Whoah guys, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

There isn't a one size fits all solution to a question like this, it's more a question of what you gain and what you lose. I'm as techie as you get but we shouldn't forget the squishy organic bits of a band either, usually the weakest link in getting a good sound.

There's no doubt in my mind that you can get a good sound with backline plus vocal PA. It has the big advantage of simplicity, everyone takes responsibility for their own sound. Set bass to match drums, guitar to them and vocals to sit on top. Use the same settings as last time as a starting point and adjust to the room. This works really well if a band have little technical expertise but if you have to turn up for any reason then it will get too loud on stage with multiple problems starting.

I've equally no doubt that for the very best sound a fully mixed set up with low sound levels on stage and probably in-ears will be better, and can be adjusted to the smallest pub or a stadium. The trouble is it takes time and a little understanding to set up and you need to invest more in the kit. If you don't have someone with the expertise the opportunities to get the sound wrong are greater too. If you don't have the time, money or expertise to set it all up properly then it isn't a good solution so KISS.

For me the biggest issue is the drums. Once you add in 5 or more mics for just the kit you are probably moving to the territory of having someone mixing FOH and then adding in problems of preserving the guitarist precious 'tone'. Add in the problems of on-stage monitoring and you've a level of complexity that can be difficult to cope with. However a backline/vocal PA has problems too. All the backline will be picked up by the vocal mics and muddy the sound, stage sound levels will tend to be too high and poor room acoustics can end up ruining the on stage sound. Low ceilings and bass are my personal bugbear.

So personally I've settled on a small backline amp just capable of comfortably sitting in with the drums and with guitarists similarly equipped.That gives us the option of playing with just backline in small venues and provides our personal on stage monitoring and tone shaping options. Mic up the cabs for guitarists, kick mic for the drums and DI for me and we can go properly mixed. So far we haven't needed to mic the drums very often but for that many people I'd expect a PA provided. Even then it's been better when I have a little control over my own stage monitoring even if the audience only hear me through the PA. That doesn't mean I think other people have it wrong, I have heard other bands sounding great with all sorts of set ups.

However, going back to Molan's original post, Ampeg 8x10 in a pub with an unmiked kit, really!

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1477044582' post='3159414']
Whoah guys, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

There isn't a one size fits all solution to a question like this, it's more a question of what you gain and what you lose. I'm as techie as you get but we shouldn't forget the squishy organic bits of a band either, usually the weakest link in getting a good sound.

There's no doubt in my mind that you can get a good sound with backline plus vocal PA. It has the big advantage of simplicity, everyone takes responsibility for their own sound. Set bass to match drums, guitar to them and vocals to sit on top. Use the same settings as last time as a starting point and adjust to the room. This works really well if a band have little technical expertise but if you have to turn up for any reason then it will get too loud on stage with multiple problems starting.

I've equally no doubt that for the very best sound a fully mixed set up with low sound levels on stage and probably in-ears will be better, and can be adjusted to the smallest pub or a stadium. The trouble is it takes time and a little understanding to set up and you need to invest more in the kit. If you don't have someone with the expertise the opportunities to get the sound wrong are greater too. If you don't have the time, money or expertise to set it all up properly then it isn't a good solution so KISS.

For me the biggest issue is the drums. Once you add in 5 or more mics for just the kit you are probably moving to the territory of having someone mixing FOH and then adding in problems of preserving the guitarist precious 'tone'. Add in the problems of on-stage monitoring and you've a level of complexity that can be difficult to cope with. However a backline/vocal PA has problems too. All the backline will be picked up by the vocal mics and muddy the sound, stage sound levels will tend to be too high and poor room acoustics can end up ruining the on stage sound. Low ceilings and bass are my personal bugbear.

So personally I've settled on a small backline amp just capable of comfortably sitting in with the drums and with guitarists similarly equipped.That gives us the option of playing with just backline in small venues and provides our personal on stage monitoring and tone shaping options. Mic up the cabs for guitarists, kick mic for the drums and DI for me and we can go properly mixed. So far we haven't needed to mic the drums very often but for that many people I'd expect a PA provided. Even then it's been better when I have a little control over my own stage monitoring even if the audience only hear me through the PA. That doesn't mean I think other people have it wrong, I have heard other bands sounding great with all sorts of set ups.

However, going back to Molan's original post, Ampeg 8x10 in a pub with an unmiked kit, really!
[/quote]
Excellent post!

Probably worth stating that using IEMs, or adequate monitoring with small amps is the best way of keeping the band volume under control. Guitarists are always the first to turn up... if you blast their IEMs with their guitar, they will be less likely to turn around and reach for the volume setting... unless it's to turn it down. IEMs are also a good way to tame drummers... its amazing how they tend to lay off smacking seven shades of sh1t out of their kit if the mix in their ears is already pretty loud...

[BigRedX]

The Terrortones actually did one gig without any PA at all. We had been booked to play one of our fan's birthday party at a known music venue in Newcastle. Unfortunately in between time the pub had undergone a makeover which involved taking out the in-house PA system and replacing it with... nothing.

Luckily a member of the audience was able to lend us his guitar amp and an XLR to jack lead from a nearby rehearsal room, so that we had some form of amplification for Mr Venom and his theremin even if it barely cut over the sound of the rest of the band playing very quietly. It made for a rather "interesting" gig.

I'm sure that even if we hadn't been able to find some make-shift amplification for the vocals Mr Venom would have made do with shouting very loudly in the ears of the most attractive girls in the audience...

[Dad3353]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1477045997' post='3159435']...shouting very loudly in the ears of the most attractive girls in the audience...
[/quote]

Another advocate of In-Ear Monitoring, then..?

[markstuk]

So can I can paraphrase the last zillion posts..

"We do this and it's great"

"We don't do that, it's sh*t, we do this, it's great"

"We still think it's great"

"You're a stupid face"

:-)

Edited October 21, 2016 by markstuk

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1477047294' post='3159455']
So can I can paraphrase the last zillion posts..

"We do this and it's great"

"We don't do that, it's sh*t, we do this, it's great"

"We still think it's great"

"You're a stupid face"

:-)
[/quote]

I reckon I can get the underlying tone nailed too...

"You're an idiot."
"No. You're an idiot."
"I understand what you are saying but you're an idiot."
"I don't care what you said, even if it works because you're an idiot."

[Ghost_Bass]

I just read the preious posts and couldn't agree more with EBS&Pete's poin of view and loved Phill's post, spot on!

I'll try to giv a brief description of my band's setup and setting up. First i have to say that my band play's a wide array of songs but the core sound is Soul/Funk/Hip-Hop so we're not using high volume and certainly not pinning anybody against the back wall.

Our PA is composed of a pair of RCF ART312A's on top of a pair of DB SUB15's (soon to be replaced by the RCF 15's). Drummers gear is a Oderey drum kit, jazz type size (18" kick) with 1 Tom and 1 floor tom. It's small and practical for the size of stages we encouter, we mic the Kick, both toms and the Hi-Hat. My gear is TRB5PII into Shuttle 9.2 into BF Super12T, both guitars use Teles and 12" combo (Fender and Line6). Singer/rythm uses the Fender's DI and Lead uses a SM57 to mic it. Mixer is a 24ch Phonic (overkill but usefull for another 7 piece project we have in this band).

After setting up we start with the kick-drum, turn the volume just a tad above the accoustic and EQ in some bass to be felt in the romm and some kick. Then proceed with the toms doing the same, just a tad of volume above the accoustic sound so that the EQ is percieved on the room, then the H-H wich is for me the most important part of the drums and need to be there and present.
Pass on to bass, i start on stage and adjust my rig's volume to the drum kit and remove sub-bass from the amp so it won't mess with the drum mics, then open the PA channel, step outside and do the same with the FHO but retaining the sub-lows for some chest punch. Guitars follow and only have a smidge of volume on the PA just to help them project to the back (if there are a lot of people standing in front of the stage the guitars, and other instruments, wont reach the back of the room. Last we do the vocals and they have to sit above all that with definition and enough volume.

In the end we get a great FOH mix at a volume suited to the room that allows people to hear the band with the best sound fidelity possible but also be able to call for a beer from the waiter and our onstage sound is low volume and everybody can hear everybody perfectly. Only monitor we use is for the singer's voice.

We don't have a tech, the mix is made by me or/and the drummer and we've been doin this for quite some time so we have a nice perception of how to set it up to get a good sound in the evening. The drummer owns a mercedes Vito were we carry the band's gear so it's not a problem to cart the PA around. In fact, if i had an Ampeg Fridge i wouldn't be able to lug it arround as opposed to my PA and rig where i can lift any piece of kit (including the subs) alone.


Another POV against backline + vox PA is that if the backline is loud enough to provide room for the room it will all bleed in to the singer's mic and mess with his PA sound, it will also be a big cause of feedbacks.

Sorry for the long post, cheers.

[TimR]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477044469' post='3159412']


There's an echo in here. They don't for the reasons I have explained previously.
[/quote]

They do. I'm using 2 2x10" stacked vertically. Moving those speakers 3m further forward will make absolutely no difference. Honestly, in a room 10-15m long there is absolutely no point.

We don't bleed into the vocal mikes. The singer is standing right behind his mic.

As I say, if we played to 300 people in a huge venue that would be completely different but the pubs we play are generally the size of the ground floor of a large house.

I have recordings of the band taken for the back of these pubs.

As Phil says more than one way to skin a cat and I don't see getting bigger FOH speakers to put the bass through so I have smaller cabs behind me as a worthwhile exercise. All it means is I have smaller gear to bring and the guitarist (who owns the PA) has bigger gear. As it is I bring everything in with two trips and my 500W amp is rarely turned up above 4 on the volume knob.

.

Edited October 21, 2016 by TimR

[stingrayPete1977]

It's not bigger, it's just better

[stingrayPete1977]

I take the PA and my amp, the smallest vocal PA and a pair of 2x10 bass cabs would take up more room than my combo and two full range pa tops. I've pointed that out ten times so far only to be met with "we haven't got room for a bigger PA" so I think I'll give up about now.

Edited October 21, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477054147' post='3159547']
I take the PA and my amp, the smallest vocal PA and a pair of 2x10 bass cabs would take up more room than my combo and two full range pa tops. I've pointed that out ten times so far only to be met with "we haven't got room for a bigger PA" so I think I'll give up about now.
[/quote]

Idiot.

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477054147' post='3159547']
I take the PA and my amp, the smallest vocal PA and a pair of 2x10 bass cabs would take up more room than my combo and two full range pa tops. I've pointed that out ten times so far only to be met with "we haven't got room for a bigger PA" so I think I'll give up about now.
[/quote]

Possibly becuase you're not reading what I'm writing.

The guitarist owns the PA. 2x10" tops. They are physically 30% possibility more, of the size of the same 15" tops and a lot lighter. FACT. The specs are on the website. He has to fit them and his guitar amp and monitors in his car and load it all in and out at his home.

I bring both my 2x10s. Mainly because getting the speakers higher does exactly the same thing as putting the bass through the PA. I could easily gig with just the one 2x10" as you do.

There is, and never will be, a one size fits all solution.

When I regularly played in a function band in halls to 300-500 people then we had full range PA support. It's completely unneccesary for my current band situation.

.

Edited October 21, 2016 by TimR

[leroydiamond]

We have been doing our Saturday night residency for the past 10 years with backline and vocal pa only. The venue has a capacity of around 150-160, we play classic rock covers and not once has it been suggested by anyone that we should use full PA.

The backline and instruments we use are very good quality (Sadowsky, Bergantino, Bogner, Gibson etc) and that is key in my opinion. I had a fellow bass player sit in for a couple of tunes recently and was very impressed with the overall sound and balance. If anything, I would like a little more oomph from the kick drum and have considered micing it up through a separate powered cab, situated beside the drums and facing the audience. (I would appreciate any comments regarding such an arrangements)