Gigging without a PA

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1477124602' post='3159955']
surely if you're using an unmiced drum kit, which we do (trust me it's loud enough for a pub gig) you need a backline loud enough so you and the drummer can hear what's going off (assuming no IEM) which, will be loud enough for the rest of the room as is the unmiced drum kit, if you see what I'm getting at, we take about 40 minutes to set up and at the end of the gig we're away in about 20 minutes which for me is a big plus
There's also the aesthetics to consider, having a big backine is more Rock and Roll IMO of course
[/quote]

I've never heard a drum kit in a band situation with an unmiced kick sound any good. It's either boxy or unable to be heard. The kick drum underpins the music - it needs to be good. I guess it's all down to what we are prepared to put up with.

Your drummer needs a side wedge to hear what going on, or IEMs -and is likely to hear what is going on better this way than highly directional guitar amps pointing away from them.

As for big backline - that's fine. Just let the PA do the work. If the guitarist is arguing that it needs to be turned up to get the tone, slap him. There's a reason that bands use big amps for visuals and end up moving up small combos behind the scenes.

[mikel]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477066358' post='3159687']
Well done that man. A pride in one's work.
[/quote]

If you cant put on your best show, in a pub, with just PA tops and your backilne, then there is something seriously wrong with your backline.

[TimR]

I'm sorry, but an unmiced bass drum does not sound boxy if you have tunes it properly. It's inly inaudible if your bass amp is turned up to stun or kill.

If the drummer can't hear the vocal monitor or guitar then he is paying too loud. End of discussion.

As I say, I don't see a problem with putting a band through a PA when the situation warrants it.

99.9% of the time we play it's a non-starter for practical reasons already explained.

If you're listening to a band that can't control their sound ten they're not going to fix it with a PA.

I've had the same argument with drummers before - my bass drum needs to sound like "X", mic it up. We are a live band not a CD recording. You can't make something sound like something else.

Edited October 22, 2016 by TimR

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477138169' post='3160081']
I'm sorry, but an unmiced bass drum does not sound boxy if you have tunes it properly. It's inly inaudible if your bass amp is turned up to stun or kill.

If the drummer can't hear the vocal monitor or guitar then he is paying too loud. End of discussion.

As I say, I don't see a problem with putting a band through a PA when the situation warrants it.

99.9% of the time we play it's a non-starter for practical reasons already explained.

If you're listening to a band that can't control their sound ten they're not going to fix it with a PA.

I've had the same argument with drummers before - my bass drum needs to sound like "X", mic it up. We are a live band not a CD recording. You can't make something sound like something else.
[/quote]
I'm sorry. Our opinions differ.

Put a live recording up of your band... and I'll put a live recording up of my band from my Tascam DR-07

Edited October 22, 2016 by EBS_freak

[Dad3353]

Yes, I know; I'm old. I've said it before. I was touring with a variety dance band (guitar, bass drums, sax/flute, Rhodes, Hammond...) in the mid-late '70s. As the genre suggests, a whole gamut of styles, from tangos to jazz standards, latest hits and rock standards Chicago, Eagles, Stones... A long list, and a full ring binder. Everything was back-line, including the Leslie for the Hammond, excepting the vocals, sax/flute and Rhodes. We played all sorts and sizes of venues, from almost cathedral halls to marquees to club-houses; very few bars as such. I only once had my drums mic'ed, when I had a bass drum batter head split during set-up, and had to nail a square of plywood to each side of the head where the beater strikes. This produced a very thin 'Poc..! Poc..!'; an SM57 was laid into the shell and given a desk channel, and a quite convincing 'disco' sound dialled in. At no other time were the drums mic'ed; they never lacked presence, nor were too loud. One adapts to the room/venue, as do the other musicians, and no-one needs ear-plugs. 'Old school'..? Yes, certainly, but it worked then, and works now. For an outdoor festival, or an arena, the proportions are different, but for 'ordinary' gigs, a reasonable quality back-line controlled by competent musicians has always been successful. Other technologies are now available (including playing MIDI samples only through software, seated behind a table with headphones on...), and a good evening's entertainment can be had with other methods, I don't doubt, but there's no need to change what's not broken, either. If it's good, it's good. While I respect the point of view of someone starting from scratch coming to different conclusions that us old buffers, I don't see why derision or scorn has to be poured on anyone using tried and tested techniques that work well. If it's done badly, a hi-tech solution will be cr@p, too, I suspect. Good gear, well used is fine now as then. Other options are now available..? Good.

[PaulWarning]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477134641' post='3160040'] The kick drum underpins the music
[/quote]no it doesn't a bass guitar does, a loud kick drum invades my frequency space, nothing worse than an overly loud kick drum IMO of course

[Dad3353]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1477141276' post='3160110']
no it doesn't a bass guitar does, a loud kick drum invades my frequency space, nothing worse than an overly loud kick drum IMO of course
[/quote]

An [i]overly [/i]loud bass is of no use to man nor beast, either, in my opinion.

[stingrayPete1977]

No one needs to be overly louder than anyone else, everything in the pa allows full control of the individual elements of the band, once you get to small pub level that needs constraint of the backline regardless of the size of the equipment.

What bands did forty years ago is down to the equipment that was available then, it makes it no better and certainly no less heavy and awkward to setup or store for your typical pub band.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477138169' post='3160081']

I've had the same argument with drummers before - my bass drum needs to sound like "X", mic it up. We are a live band not a CD recording. You can't make something sound like something else.
[/quote]

Err you are the guy saying my views are stuck in the past right?
Have you heard what a piece of crap kick drum sounds like live through a gate and compressor? Trust me it sounds like something else!


I'm still waiting for you to tell me what you are doing differently to the illustrations above regarding backline, I suspect it's just what I've drawn but for different speaker sizes?

[mikel]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477138606' post='3160086']
I'm sorry. Our opinions differ.

Put a live recording up of your band... and I'll put a live recording up of my band from my Tascam DR-07
[/quote]

If you take the feed from the desk then no argument, but thats hardly fair. Record your fully PAd sound from the back of the room, as would be the backline recording, and the only difference would be the quality of the instrument balance, and that is down to the musicians in the band in both instances. If you cant get a decent balance in a pub without a sound engineer than you are in trouble as a gigging musician.

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477143498' post='3160123']


Err you are the guy saying my views are stuck in the past right?
Have you heard what a piece of crap kick drum sounds like live through a gate and compressor? Trust me it sounds like something else!


I'm still waiting for you to tell me what you are doing differently to the illustrations above regarding backline, I suspect it's just what I've drawn but for different speaker sizes?
[/quote]

So we have to buy a mic, a gate, a compressor, full range speakers because someone won't tune his drum or replace his 25year old skins?

Nonsense.

Yes.
We don't have that "PA" part, which is presumably all those processors and amplifiers.
I use 2 2x10" stacked vertically so the bass is already at ear height.
We don't need/have a fill monitor for the drummer.

.
The internet is really struggling today. Think it's loads of DDoS attacks.

.

Edited October 22, 2016 by TimR

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1477143901' post='3160127']


If you take the feed from the desk then no argument, but thats hardly fair. Record your fully PAd sound from the back of the room, as would be the backline recording, and the only difference would be the quality of the instrument balance, and that is down to the musicians in the band in both instances. If you cant get a decent balance in a pub without a sound engineer than you are in trouble as a gigging musician.
[/quote]
I take it you didn't google the Tascam DR07 before writing your response then?

What about a miced kit?

And the "quality" of instrument balance is pretty critical to a good sounding band...

Edited October 22, 2016 by EBS_freak

[TimR]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477138606' post='3160086']

I'm sorry. Our opinions differ.

Put a live recording up of your band... and I'll put a live recording up of my band from my Tascam DR-07
[/quote]

I have no idea what you're getting at here. What's the competition got to do with anything being discussed?

Nowhere has anyone said your system isn't better than mine or anyone else's. The point is practicality and necessity. It's neither practical
nor necessary for my situation.

[JTUK]

If the acoustic kit sounds poor, then good luck mic'ing that.

Don't use a drummer who can't tune his kit. There is no reason for it.

[mikel]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477144874' post='3160132']
I take it you didn't google the Tascam DR07 before writing your response then?

What about a miced kit?

And the "quality" of instrument balance is pretty critical to a good sounding band...
[/quote]

Dont need a miced kit in a pub room as our drummer is a musician, he knows how to play his kit and balance the drum and cymbal sounds, it goes with the job. As I said, its down to the musicians skill and experience to get a good balance in any room, If you need a full mix in a pub to achieve this then the musicians are lazy/ inexperienced.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1477147720' post='3160163']


Dont need a miced kit in a pub room as our drummer is a musician, he knows how to play his kit and balance the drum and cymbal sounds, it goes with the job. As I said, its down to the musicians skill and experience to get a good balance in any room, If you need a full mix in a pub to achieve this then the musicians are lazy/ inexperienced.
[/quote]
:-p

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477087395' post='3159861']

There's no way I'm lugging a 4x10 bass cab anywhere, ever. They sound terrible.

I think (from your drawing) you have an[b] image stuck in your head.[/b]

[/quote]


[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477144037' post='3160129']

I use 2 2x10" stacked vertically so the bass is already at ear height.
We don't need/have a fill monitor for the drummer.
[/quote]

So other than the stacking of the speakers and no drum fill my drawing was bang on then

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477145754' post='3160138']
If the acoustic kit sounds poor, then good luck mic'ing that.

Don't use a drummer who can't tune his kit. There is no reason for it.
[/quote]

I don't know where you lot are living? A biscuit tin through a decent digital desk could be moulded to sound better than many acoustic bass drums, failing that leave the kick at home and use a kick drum trigger from a used £50 electronic kit and choose your favourite kick drum sample from your record collection!

We have a drummer that plays with all the bands in town, in one really small place he uses a Roland V drums kick drum but with a normal snare, hats and a single tom, sounds great and saves 2 foot of floor space.

[EBS_freak]

Do people realise that micing a kit and tuning a kit aren't mutually exclusive things? You can have both, right?

[stingrayPete1977]

If we all stand back and remove our personal situations from this then this is where my head is at and the best suggestion for most folk looking to invest in new or newish used gear, the kit is as good as the people working it and can be used in many ways so ignor the ins and outs.

Lets mark each typical setup out of 3 for the typical gigs most of us do before calling in the PA people,
1 for a really small pub
1 for a medium pub/function room
1 for a decent sized marquee or outdoor gig, not a beer festival just a small fete or similar with the crowd gathered around.


TimR's sort of kit is fine, works well no doubt but can [b]only [/b]do a small gig, the 10" tops are going to run out of steam around the same time the unmic'd drummers leg falls off and with this setup the drum mic isnt an option regardless, again please don't think I am knocking the setup or its ability to work for the small gigs. It could be pushed into the slightly bigger pubs so I'll give it a bit for that too.
so 1.3 out of 3

Dad's big old kit could possibly sound the best of all in the right hands, I don't doubt that for a minute but how many people live in a farm house in France to keep it all and have a spare Renault Traffic to get it all to the gig?, once at the gigs TimR's kit is suited for Dad ain't going to get the kit and the musicians or an audience in the pub, damn! It will of course do the bigger pubs and the larger gigs so 2 out 3.

The full range tops and a digital desk is slightly bigger than the first option, possibly smaller cubic m once you take the desk and power amps away, it will do the smallest gigs and could be used just for vocals with a backline if you want no problem.
It will be most at home in the next slot where you need a bit more oomph and the option to start mic'ing the bass and drums up towards the biggest function rooms.
It can also do the marquee gigs no problem without the need for subs, I would think the outdoor ones with the big old school kit with the subs and a power amp or two would start to pay off but a single active 18" sub or a pair of 15" subs in reserve if you have room to store them would pull it back level with far less boxes to carry so I give that a score of 2.9 out of 3.

Less kit to store and carry, FAR more options of control on the desk and the ability to save a mix for each venue ready for return gigs and the ability to cover every gig to a really good standard regardless of how you like to set it all up and what you do and don't mic up then for me I really can't see a better option for most people doing the rounds.

Edited October 22, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[mikel]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477151073' post='3160188']
I don't know where you lot are living?[b] A biscuit tin through a decent digital desk could be moulded to sound better than many acoustic bass drums, [/b]failing that leave the kick at home and use a kick drum trigger from a used £50 electronic kit and choose your favourite kick drum sample from your record collection!

We have a drummer that plays with all the bands in town, in one really small place he uses a Roland V drums kick drum but with a normal snare, hats and a single tom, sounds great and saves 2 foot of floor space.
[/quote]

Well, possibly, but at the size of venue we are talking about you would still hear the biscuit tin. Feel free to go on about big PA systems but it has already been pointed out that its neither practical or necessary in the situations we play in.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1477152405' post='3160207']
Well, possibly, but at the size of venue we are talking about you would still hear the biscuit tin. Feel free to go on about big PA systems but it has already been pointed out that its neither practical or necessary in the situations we play in.
[/quote]

I can't explain again that it is not any bigger than most PA systems, as you were.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1477152405' post='3160207']


Well, possibly, but at the size of venue we are talking about you would still hear the biscuit tin. Feel free to go on about big PA systems but it has already been pointed out that its neither practical or necessary in the situations we play in.
[/quote]
Again, don't use a biscuit tin and mic it up. Have a tuned kick and mic it up. I said before - you could use a tiny kick and process it to sound huge. I think Pete's statement was taken too much at face value. You can iron out some of the problems if you have the power in your desk.

I don't see how Petes suggestion of two 15 tops at circa 20kg and say a XR18 could ever be classed as "big PA". It's portable with high SPL. Isn't that the best of both worlds?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477153123' post='3160213']
Again, don't use a biscuit tin and mic it up. Have a tuned kick and mic it up. I said before - you could use a tiny kick and process it to sound huge. I think Pete's statement was [b]taken too much at face value[/b]. You can iron out some of the problems if you have the power in your desk.

I don't see how Petes suggestion of two 15 tops at circa 20kg and say a XR18 could ever be classed as "big PA". It's portable with high SPL. Isn't that the best of both worlds?
[/quote]

On Basschat? never! Of course I have bought this "big" PA but been and borrowed a tin from my nan of Foxes' finest and taped it to the drummers leg!

[EBS_freak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_zsDpeWF6k

Note how kit is miced. Could do with a bit of a tune though.