Gigging without a PA

[AndrewJordan]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477256961' post='3160971']
No, not really, I'd not like any band that sounded bad, but the nature of these gigs are that they are a compromise...and if you are talking pubs then most are the opposite of suitable for music anyway.
Personally, I can live with a vox only P.A if most other basses are covered, I'm just not going to stress over a lot of the other stuff for diminishing returns.
Depends on how far below a certain threshold tho.
[/quote]

I agree re: pubs, most of them are aweful places for sound. I suppose it all depends on what lengths you are happy to go to really. Personally, I don't mind carrying the few extra boxes that are needed for full PA as opposed to vocal only and I actually enjoy the mixing part and trying to get the best sound in difficult conditions. But, I understand that isn't everybody's thing.

[AndrewJordan]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477257434' post='3160973']
But a lot of 3 piece bands will have to accept some sounds or parts they can't cover... and that is before you get into the limitation on top of limitations..
The best 3 piece bands round here have limited sets... but because of the guys in it, aren't that limited as bands. They will be very capable RnB/blues outfits and know exactly what they can carry off... they wont play the track otherwise

But you need very capable/imaginative musicians to make certain tracks work if you are missing keys for example...
[/quote]

I agree with this too. We also limit oursleves with song choices. Someone in the band will say "oh, lets do such and such" and someone else will say "no, it'll sound crap without the keys/second guitar/whatever" so we don't attempt it unless we think we can do it justice.

[TimR]

I really don't agree with this.

I've heard people sing Beatles tunes while strumming an acoustic guitar.

No bass, no drums, no lead guitar, no three/four part vocal harmonies...

[tauzero]

In our band, I [1] own the bits of PA that actually make the noise, the guitarist owns the rest - mixer and lots of outboard bits. SRM450s for vocal FOH and a bit of kick, Behringer D210s for vocal monitors. RCF 735s or 745s and no backline sound nice to have, but it means that someone has to find somewhere over a grand to do it. That's 20+ £50 a head gigs for me to finance them when what we've got works well. Maybe we're just so entertaining that the audience don't notice the sound deficiencies, because we haven't had any comments about poor sound quality since starting using the current setup a couple of years ago.

[1] As I'm married to the vocalist and what's mine is hers, and what's hers is hers, the vocalist owns the PA.

[blue]

We always use a pa, sometime scaled back for small bars.

Depends on the band. I've seen some that can pull it off playing without a pa and sone that can't.

Blue

Edited October 24, 2016 by blue

[stingrayPete1977]

There are people out there doing perfectly enjoyable renditions of songs on an acoustic guitar and singing along.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477258726' post='3160989']
I really don't agree with this.

I've heard people sing Beatles tunes while strumming an acoustic guitar.

No bass, no drums, no lead guitar, no three/four part vocal harmonies...
[/quote]

Exactly, I missed the last few posts before my last post.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1477267434' post='3161046']
In our band, I [1] own the bits of PA that actually make the noise, the guitarist owns the rest - mixer and lots of outboard bits. SRM450s for vocal FOH and a bit of kick, Behringer D210s for vocal monitors. RCF 735s or 745s and no backline sound nice to have, but it means that someone has to find somewhere over a grand to do it. That's 20+ £50 a head gigs for me to finance them when what we've got works well. Maybe we're just so entertaining that the audience don't notice the sound deficiencies, because we haven't had any comments about poor sound quality since starting using the current setup a couple of years ago.

[1] As I'm married to the vocalist and what's mine is hers, and what's hers is hers, the vocalist owns the PA.
[/quote]

There absolutely nothing wrong with that kit but if you were starting out with a blank canvas the cost wouldn't be that different, you'd only need to buy a pair of active subs to add to your PA to bring the cost level and the volume level but you'd have two more big boxes to store and carry for each gig. If you don't need them then it's neither here nor there anyway.

[JTUK]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1477258726' post='3160989']
I really don't agree with this.

I've heard people sing Beatles tunes while strumming an acoustic guitar.

No bass, no drums, no lead guitar, no three/four part vocal harmonies...
[/quote]

Sure..you have to KNOW what you can cover and how... a solo acoustic and vox will be lot more adept at this than most 3 piece bands.... which is kind of bourne out by the fact that they wont/don't use bands because they add so little for the money.
Sometimes, it is enough the get the essense of the song and great songs makes this easier, but you need to know where the line is.

I've sat in some rehearsals recently and questioned that bands desire to do such a song...exactly because they couldn't pull it off. This is typical territory for a lot of bands..play the song you love rather than can do it justice.
Suffice to say they accepted the singer's explanation that he was comfortable singing a vocal part..when he plainly wasn't and it sounded awful- (to me) I turned down the date as it happens but it wouldn't hurt if the bar was a bit higher..or better still, just be brutal with the dead wood.

[AndrewJordan]

Absolutely! I've heard singer/guitarists doing great versions fo songs. But it really does all boil down to whether you feel you are doing the song justice. And, you might think you do but others may disagree but thats just life. For us as a three piece for example we wouldn't attempt to cover a song that has very prominently featured keyboard parts or twin guitar harmonies but we would cover a song that has rhythm guitar behind the solos even though we wouldn't have that rhythm guitar. The exception to this would be if we were going to completely re-work the song and make it our own version.

[TimR]

Part of the problem (and it's similar to the PA situation we are discussing) is that a lot of 'musicians' get hung up on trying to reproduce the original exactly as it is on the original recording.

Being a musician to me is understanding how the lyrics, melody and bassline interact to create a song. Once you understand that you can pick any song and reproduce it to a very high standard using any instrumentation you have available. There's a huge amount of production and filling in music.

I think of the original recording as like an oil painting that the artist has spent months creating from his original sketch. If you saw Leonardo Da Vinci's sketch of Mona Lisa, it would still be recognisable as the Mona Lisa.

[tauzero]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477301540' post='3161152']
There absolutely nothing wrong with that kit but if you were starting out with a blank canvas the cost wouldn't be that different
[/quote]

Two SRM450s = one RCF 735A.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477301540' post='3161152']
you'd only need to buy a pair of active subs to add to your PA to bring the cost level and the volume level but you'd have two more big boxes to store and carry for each gig. If you don't need them then it's neither here nor there anyway.
[/quote]

I'm a little confused now. We'd need a pair of active subs as well as the RCF735s? Or as well as the SRM450s? I thought you just said the RCF 735s on their own would do the job. I really don't want to go for active subs too, they tend to weight rather more than Berg AE112s which they would effectively be replacing.

[stingrayPete1977]

No I'm saying to bring your existing kit up to match the RCF ones you would need to add subs.

[EBS_freak]

Just to clarify, I think what Pete is trying to say is -

2x Mackie and 2x small subs (or 1 bigger sub) = 2 x RCF 735s

- so cost wise, they are comparable but instead of carrying 3/4 boxes, you are carrying 2 for your money.

So the (very rough) sums... (I appreciate that volume/sound quality etc isn't as simple as this...)

Mackie SRM450 (Mercury AV - £379 X 2) + Mackie SRM1550 (Gear4Music £729) = £1487

RCF 735 (Mercury AV - £819 X 2) = £1638

- £150ish difference to save lifting - plus you get a 3" VC on the HF woofer so your vocals will soar on the RCFs compared to the Mackies.

I know that specs are fairly loose in this game but here a few musing on the matter...

[b]Mackie Tops[/b]
Frequency Response: 47Hz - 20kHz, -3dB
Max. Peak SPL: 128dB
circa 17kg

[b]Mackie Subs[/b]

Frequency Response: 50Hz - 120Hz, -3dB
Max. Peak SPL: 131dB
circa 30kg

[b]RCF Tops[/b]
Frequency Response: 45 Hz - 20kHz, -3dB
Max Peak SPL 132 dB
circa 20kg

A pair of Mackies coupled (which isn't going to happen in the real world as you would typically run a pair with one either side of stage) would give you 131dB (eg 3dB boost). So one RCF will peak roughly at the same as a pair of coupled SRM450s (So think 4 SRM450s with 2 either side of the stage). Given that the RCF are roughly twice the price, that's not a bad price to performance scale to be running with - remember, the RCF has a much higher quality 3"VC in the highs that the Mackie doesn't have either (both Mackie SRM450/Sub and RCF735 have 3" voice coils in the woofers). The higher quality HF driver allows the cross over to be lower, meaning that you can send more to the HF driver and hence open up more headroom for the woofer to actually deliver the lows and keep all the vocal detail in the top without the harshness that is typically associated with the Mackies. In other words, your woofer in your RCF will be able to run harder without getting farty and running out of puff and killing your highs.

What's quite interesting is that RCF reckon their tops go down 5Hz more (like for like at -3dB) than the Mackie SUB! Granted, you'll have more headroom running a sub with a crossover but that kinda shows how full range that 735 is.

I'm guessing what I'm trying to say is that roughly, the RCF 735s can replace the equivalent 3 box setup for most [b]pub and wedding[/b] situations. (If you are looking for huge kicking sub bass as opposed to replacing your bass rig and a bit of kick drum support, big subs are the only option to you anyway). If you look at Alex's FR800 - that's pretty much the same concept, a top that goes low enough and loud enough to make you consider doing away with subs - although they are again a couple more hundred quid more expensive than the 735s... so you would then be pitching them against a 745 (which has a 4" VC in the high and a 3.5 VC in the woofer and has an increase in SPL also).

Remember these are all peak figures, so in reality running volume will be lower.

Edited October 8, 2017 by EBS_freak

[stingrayPete1977]

Yes, that's what I'm saying ^

[tauzero]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477377056' post='3161747'] No I'm saying to bring your existing kit up to match the RCF ones you would need to add subs. [/quote]

Right, got it. I'm keeping an open mind on the situation as our drummer may be moving to an electronic kit, and our guitarist is having problems hearing some things, so no backline, PA only, and IEMs is a possible future route, but subs would be a PITA so it would be a case of moving over to something like the RCFs.

[stingrayPete1977]

Yep perfect for that mate.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1477412972' post='3162074']
Right, got it. I'm keeping an open mind on the situation as our drummer may be moving to an electronic kit, and our guitarist is having problems hearing some things, so no backline, PA only, and IEMs is a possible future route, but subs would be a PITA so it would be a case of moving over to something like the RCFs.
[/quote]

If you are looking for portability, an electric kit with you and the guitarist on modellers would be immense - especially if you are on ears. And just because I say the word modeller... it doesn't mean pants.

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477487618' post='3162539']
an electric kit with you and the guitarist on modellers would be immense - especially if you are on ears.
[/quote]

That's the dream

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1477490459' post='3162558']
That's the dream
[/quote]
Just remember, Wheatus were doing it since the late 90s...

[FuNkShUi]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477490713' post='3162562']
Just remember, Wheatus were doing it since the late 90s...
[/quote]

That was why it didn't catch on

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='FuNkShUi' timestamp='1477490767' post='3162563']
That was why it didn't catch on
[/quote]
I remember seeing Wheatus live around 2000, whether the music is to your taste or not, they sounded pretty incredible.

[leroydiamond]

Remember seeing the Australian Pink Floyd many years ago in a venue with a capacity of 500-600. Their sound was really incredible. Had a brief chat with the sound engineer and he said everything was going straight into the PA other than 4 vocal mics. No guitar amps and the acoustic kit was just triggering pads.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1477491948' post='3162571']
Remember seeing the Australian Pink Floyd many years ago in a venue with a capacity of 500-600. Their sound was really incredible. Had a brief chat with the sound engineer and he said everything was going straight into the PA other than 4 vocal mics. No guitar amps and the acoustic kit was just triggering pads.
[/quote]
Triggered kicks are where I'm at the moment. I can spend my life trying to get "that" perfect live kick drum sound, eq it, compress it... try and keep it from picking up the floor tom... or just trigger a kick drum sound which would probably sound better any way due to being put back in all the elements that would be captured in a studio in a controlled environment. I feel slightly different about triggering different parts of the kit (especially say hi hats and snare as they can sound wildly different depending upon how you hit it or what you are doing with the hihat pedal) but would be more into using a hybrid setup - where for example, a snare hit could co-trigger a hand clap.

Edited October 26, 2016 by EBS_freak

[M@23]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1477392026' post='3161870']
2x Mackie and 2x small subs (or 1 bigger sub) = 2 x RCF 735s

[/quote]

Cheers for that we've been looking to expand or refresh the PA and have been using a 15" Mackie sub on loan. Whilst it did fill out the sound, it is heavy as!
Been debating whether we should just ditch the tops and forget the sub and just get a couple of good full range 15s.
It's a small to medium gig PA as anything bigger the rig is supplied or we hire. So 3 vocal mics, bass and acoustic kick to reinforce. Sounds like this could be the better option.