playing by ear

[GarethFlatlands]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1477247266' post='3160852']
I thought you only transposed the Trombone when written in treble clef (tone up), like British Brass Bands do?
Otherwise it's all Bass clef and not transposed?
Or have I got that wrong?

[/quote]

Well that's even more confusing... so it's probably correct! There seems to be a lot of brass playing that's pointlessly complicated. I can only go on my experience with trumpet so the only transposing I needed was upping everything 2 semitones to be in line with everyone else.

Edit - Back on topic, I'd strongly advise learning some theory, even if it's just basic scales and how to construct chords. Don't be afraid to keep playing by ear as it'll stop you getting too hung up on what should sound right but knowing your onions is a good starting place and I wish I'd bothered to learn earlier.

Edited October 23, 2016 by GarethFlatlands

[mikel]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1477219804' post='3160587']
How do you play to a song that you've never heard before ? How do you know what note to play first etc ?

I'm just curious.
[/quote]

The same as the keys or guitarist. Ask what chord the composer is playing, or watch and listen as he/she runs through the song. If its a cover I listen to the recorded original and work it out "By ear".

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1477249313' post='3160871']


The same as the keys or guitarist. Ask what chord the composer is playing, or watch and listen as he/she runs through the song. If its a cover I listen to the recorded original and work it out "By ear".
[/quote]

I think ambient means when the audience are already there waiting, they can't sit and watch you learn each song for 15 mins before watching the whole band then play it again!

[Captain Rumble]

Having spent the best part of 40 years playing without knowing I have recently decided to have music lessons from young Jamesbass of this parish. My son who has just started at BIMM finds this most amusing but apart from the piss taking it is probably one of the more sensible things bass related that I have ever done. With each snippet of musical wisdom that is imparted to me the enormity of what I do not know becomes more clear however the difference it is making to my playing and how I feel about my playing is worth every penny both figuratively and literally. Now if I can just live to about 150 I should just be beginning to get an understanding of where this is going, maybe, sortof.

[Vinny]

I never could play by ear, so I play over there instead.


Ahayethengyow.


Ah, my coat.

[mikel]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477249645' post='3160873']
I think ambient means when the audience are already there waiting, they can't sit and watch you learn each song for 15 mins before watching the whole band then play it again!
[/quote]

No idea. I would never play a song to a paying audience without practice for the whole band. If it was a 12 bar then that would be easy.

[lowdown]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1477290366' post='3161069']
No idea. I would never play a song to a paying audience without practice for the whole band. If it was a 12 bar then that would be easy.
[/quote]

Ear playing to me, is doing gigs without practise/rehearsal as well as learning tunes from recorded media.
Turning up on a dep gig, knowing your stuff, busking a whole gig without messing up or playing 'clams'.
Doing gigs with people you know, the singer turns round and just shouts out the key and off you go.

Maybe this is what the OP is talking about?
If so, it's not just musicians who don't read or don't know their theory that do this.
There are many players on this very forum who read, know their theory, that also play 'by ear'.
I should think most players use their ear - It's just that some actually know what they are playing.

[Coilte]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1477297879' post='3161113']
Ear playing to me, is doing gigs without practise/rehearsal as well as learning tunes from recorded media.
[/quote]

I accept your opinion, but I have always assumed playing by ear to mean...[u]learning[/u]
a song by working out the bass lines yourself without tabs. I also assumed that this would be done at home, tweaked if necessary at rehearsal....[u]THEN[/u]...go and gig it.

Personally, I would never try to perform a song for the first time on stage without having worked on it before hand. YMMV.

[lowdown]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1477299801' post='3161130']


I accept your opinion, but I have always assumed playing by ear to mean...[u]learning[/u]
a song by working out the bass lines yourself without tabs. I also assumed that this would be done at home, tweaked if necessary at rehearsal....[u]THEN[/u]...go and gig it.

Personally, I would never try to perform a song for the first time on stage without having worked on it before hand. YMMV.
[/quote]

I did say both, as you quoted.
Mikel said above, that without a rehearsal he wouldn't want to play a song to a paying audience,
unless it was easy like a twelve bar. Some experienced players could play more than a twelve bar without
a rehearsal. My point was, busking tunes on a gig is using your ears as well. Many do it all the time.

Now, that might mean years of playing experience has helped in remembering many tunes,
or they have good relative pitch, or a combination of both. To me that is playing by ear.
But like you said, that is just my opinion.

[JTUK]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1477305842' post='3161187']
I did say both, as you quoted.
Mikel said above, that without a rehearsal he wouldn't want to play a song to a paying audience,
unless it was easy like a twelve bar. Some experienced players could play more than a twelve bar without
a rehearsal. My point was, busking tunes on a gig is using your ears as well. Many do it all the time.

Now, that might mean years of playing experience has helped in remembering many tunes,
or they have good relative pitch, or a combination of both. To me that is playing by ear.
But like you said, that is just my opinion.
[/quote]

I'd go with this. You get booked and you get introduced to the band at the gig. You need to be able to COVER it...the band needs to know you CAN cover it.
The BL might be in the swing of things and going through a lot of 'standards' but they are only standards if you've been there before.

There may be all sorts of signals where he points to the head and he has just concocted a medley as he has read the audience and wants to get them on track ...he'll give you 3 down as the key (usually just holding his hand behind his back) so you better know where that key and change is.

Some people can do this ALL by ear without knowing what on earth is going on...but those with such perfect pitch are very rare, IME... so most people just use those as clues/prompts and can hear changes..but they have to know the chord note in the first place. This is relative pitch which is a very good skill to have/learn. IMO.

I'd say playing by ear is knowing the song in your head, but you've never played it..or not in that key..you just know it.and you also know there is a section that requires changes. You should be able to hear intervals like 2 tones down for example..and you should know turnarounds. So, with a bit of a jazz background, because these are mostly jazz situations that get you started and most gigs are like this, you'll be able to deal with 70% of the set straight off.
You have a WIDE repetiore, know styles and a few time sigs, and you can make a go of latin, reggae etc etc without throwing the whole band out.
You can then solo over a few basic changes.

This, to me, is a solid by-ear player. who has enough theory to busk that without anyone thinking he is out of his depth.
If you can read charts as well, all the better but the BL needs both because he may not have time to give out charts all night or direct you to them without breaking the flow too much..so he'll chop and change it.
To do this gig, you need ' great ears'.as this is way beyond a few 12 bars.

Edited October 24, 2016 by JTUK

[lowdown]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477308352' post='3161214']


I'd go with this. You get booked and you get introduced to the band at the gig. You need to be able to COVER it...the band needs to know you CAN cover it.
The BL might be in the swing of things and going through a lot of 'standards' but they are only standards if you've been there before.

There may be all sorts of signals where he points to the head and he has just concocted a medley as he has read the audience and wants to get them on track ...he'll give you 3 down as the key (usually just holding his hand behind his back) so you better know where that key and change is.

Some people can do this ALL by ear without knowing what on earth is going on...but those with such perfect pitch are very rare, IME... so most people just use those as clues/prompts and can hear changes..but they have to know the chord note in the first place. This is relative pitch which is a very good skill to have/learn. IMO.

I'd say playing by ear is knowing the song in your head, but you've never played it..or not in that key..you just know it.and you also know there is a section that requires changes. You should be able to hear intervals like 2 tones down for example..and you should know turnarounds. So, with a bit of a jazz background, because these are mostly jazz situations that get you started and most gigs are like this, you'll be able to deal with 70% of the set straight off.
You have a WIDE repetiore, know styles and a few time sigs, and you can make a go of latin, reggae etc etc without throwing the whole band out.
You can then solo over a few basic changes.

This, to me, is a solid by-ear player. who has enough theory to busk that without anyone thinking he is out of his depth.
If you can read charts as well, all the better but the BL needs both because he may not have time to give out charts all night or direct you to them without breaking the flow too much..so he'll chop and change it.
To do this gig, you need ' great ears'.as this is way beyond a few 12 bars.
[/quote]

Exactly.


Relative pitch practise is as worthy as reading and theory practise, along with scales, chord tones etc.

Edited October 24, 2016 by lowdown

[ambient]

My gig last night[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1477305842' post='3161187']
I did say both, as you quoted.
Mikel said above, that without a rehearsal he wouldn't want to play a song to a paying audience,
unless it was easy like a twelve bar. Some experienced players could play more than a twelve bar without
a rehearsal. My point was, busking tunes on a gig is using your ears as well. Many do it all the time.

Now, that might mean years of playing experience has helped in remembering many tunes,
or they have good relative pitch, or a combination of both. To me that is playing by ear.
But like you said, that is just my opinion.
[/quote]

This was my gig last night. Quite an important one because the band wanted a residency, which we got. We don't rehearse, we just turn up and play. We use charts, but playing by ear is a massive part of the gig. listening to what's going on, keys changed at the last minute, the arrangement evolves as the song goes on, watch the MD for cues re solos and dynamic etc.

Edited October 24, 2016 by ambient

[stingrayPete1977]

Turning up to practice once a week working out your parts as everyone else is playing then playing the same parts from memory at the gig isn't playing by ear imo.


"Your on in five, I'll give you the key and just join in", that's playing by ear imo.

In that situation most guitarists will tell you the key is whatever their first chord is!, tread with caution for the first verse and chorus is my rule of thumb

[ambient]

There was a guy I was at uni with. He was without doubt the most gifted musician I've ever encountered. He could hear something once, and then play it. I'm not talking 12 bar either. He could do it on bass and also on piano, jazz stuff too. His uncle is a well known bassist.

[MisterT]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1477299801' post='3161130'] I have always assumed playing by ear to mean...[u]learning [/u]a song by working out the bass lines yourself without tabs.[/quote]
That's my assumption too, FWIW. If a musician can react to what's going on around him / her then to me that's more 'on the fly' or 'on the hoof' playing rather than 'by ear' but we're into semantics and pfft, I'm just impressed with folks who can do both.

I avoid tabs unless I'm absolutely stuck (maybe because haven't tackled anything nasty yet!) plus I don't learn very well unless I've figured at least most of it myself.

[stingrayPete1977]

I'd call that working it out by ear, it's what most people do unless it becomes too tricky to work out, some people will get Dakota down in one but not much else, others can unravel a whole level 42 album no problem.

[RockfordStone]

i can't read music, am pretty slack with my learning of scales and arpeggios, but i know which notes sound right and which don't... that has got me through for 15 years

[Coilte]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1477312997' post='3161290']
I'd call that working it out by ear,
[/quote]

Obviously everyone has a different interpretation of playing by ear. Without wishing to split hairs...I learned by playing along to LP's and later CD's. This not only taught me what notes to play, but also how the bass "fits into" a song, and the general feeling of groove and syncopation. So, I consider myself to have learned to play the song by listening to it...i.e. by ear.

I'm inclined to agree with MisterT in that going up on stage without any prior knowledge of what is to be played...would be .."playing on the fly". Also, as with MisterT, I admire people who can do both.

[Dad3353]

That most trustworthy of references, Wikipedia, says this...

[url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playing_by_ear"]Playing by ear...[/url]

I'll not contradict it.

[mikel]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1477309027' post='3161225']
My gig last night

This was my gig last night. Quite an important one because the band wanted a residency, which we got. We don't rehearse, we just turn up and play. We use charts, but playing by ear is a massive part of the gig. listening to what's going on, keys changed at the last minute, the arrangement evolves as the song goes on, watch the MD for cues re solos and dynamic etc.
[/quote]

Thats one version of playing by ear. I believe what the OP meant was not being able to read music or charts and learning songs by ear. Listening to music and working out the bass parts yourself. Or someone running through a song and you just pick it up during rehearsal. Playing standards is not really playing by ear, its having a good memory.

When I said I wouldnt play a song without the band having practiced it I meant because we change songs to suit the style we play or play them in a different genre. I think its nice if a band starts and finishes a song at the same time and are doing the same stops during the music. I can jam and improvise with almost anyone, and we sometimes include that in songs, but personally I wouldnt improvise a whole set I like us to play tight.

[JTUK]

But the guys who can do this well are very tight... They don't asked to do these gigs if they can't carry this off.

[JTUK]

Playing standards is not memory if you've never played it before or the key has changed.
Standards mean typical set.... Not that you know them all.

Simple case of point of playing by ear.
Born to run... Have heard before, but never listened to it...
One play thru and although it jumps about a bit.. All the changes are obvious and you should be able to play it live at a gig... And you also have get the drums and his take on it in bar 1.
And no one should be any the wiser that this is a first take.
Any by-ear/dep/call it what you will player worth his salt would be able make that sort of song work pretty quickly and the end result be the equal of a lot of bands efforts. At least.

I'd call those songs good busking/no pad required types

Edited October 25, 2016 by JTUK

[stingrayPete1977]

I played a U2 number for the first dance a couple of weeks ago, the first time I'd heard it was as we were playing it, I think I played both notes in the right places throughout

[paul_c2]

[quote name='archie84' timestamp='1477167742' post='3160357']
hi everyone. just wondering if there is anyone elles out there that has no idea of what there playing??

i always wanted to play the bass so i bought one years ago and some tutorial books to get me started. i was verry eager and couldent wait to get started as i was playing trombone in a soul band and this sparked something in me.
howeaver... when i started to learn with the books everything was in a diferent key obviously so i found myself getting confused and thought to myself... sod this i just want to play the damm thing lol..

so 5 years later im playing in my third band, were a 4 piece cover band curently with a set of 28 songs, but i have no idea to some degre what im playing really in tearms of keys and all that. i understand music through playing the trombone and did my theorys with that instrument.

i just listen to the band and play along with them.

anyone elles doing this???
[/quote]

When you say you did theory and played the trombone - to what level?


[quote name='GarethFlatlands' timestamp='1477240385' post='3160788']
Well the trombone is pitched to Bb so you're playing a Bb when the sheet music tells you it's a C. I never got why brass instruments did that, used to drive me nuts when I played trumpet.
[/quote]

[quote name='GarethFlatlands' timestamp='1477248843' post='3160865']
Well that's even more confusing... so it's probably correct! There seems to be a lot of brass playing that's pointlessly complicated. I can only go on my experience with trumpet so the only transposing I needed was upping everything 2 semitones to be in line with everyone else.

Edit - Back on topic, I'd strongly advise learning some theory, even if it's just basic scales and how to construct chords. Don't be afraid to keep playing by ear as it'll stop you getting too hung up on what should sound right but knowing your onions is a good starting place and I wish I'd bothered to learn earlier.
[/quote]

Firstly, "transposing instrument" is meaningless on its own, and is basically a consequence of how a player plays written music on it, ie what notes they play when they read certain notes on the standard music staff.

Trumpet is almost always a transposing instrument, in that its "written" C sounds as a concert pitch Bb. However there are plenty of situations where this isn't the case. Trombone parts are written in treble clef for brass bands (and sometimes/often wind bands, concert bands etc). But often written in bass clef, for orchestra. Competent trombone players get to a stage where they're fairly fluid in reading both bass and treble clef equally well. After all, its only the horizontal position of the notes on the staff which change, all other symbols, rhythm etc remains the same.

The reason its done (writing all brass instruments in treble clef) is simply a convention, done by some (but not all) arrangers in some (but not all) band/orchestra situations. Its a convention which makes switching from one brass instrument to another simpler, however.

[TrevorR]

If the OP has been playing trombone for years and has learned his way around a bass neck by ear I would have thought there was some simple cross application of knowledge. From trombone presumably he knows what major and minor scales sound like, and how the intervals within those scales work in relation to the tonic and each other?

A first step would be to learn the notes on the bass neck up to the 7th fret on each string and then expand that to the 12th. Then learn some basic movable scale shapes (major, minor, and pentatonic). Then from that work out the shapes for each interval in the major and minor scale.

In combination those would give a lot of info and codification of what was being played even by ear, what chord tones were included in the lines being played and what intervals. It would also provide suggestions for other notes within lines both for working out songs or creating lines.

Now I know... before anyone says, "Play the notes not the shapes". That's all well and good, but scale and chord shapes are a good way of starting to relate notes in lines to the physical space on the fingerboard, to internalise the board and build intuition and muscle memory. They have a very useful place in starting out.

In this context the transposing nature of the trombone vs the non transposing nature of the bass is a red herring. If the music or chord sheet says C then play a C. If the chord is a C major play notes and intervals within the C major scale, to begin with, adding whatever blue or grace notes feel right... Don't over think it.

Edited October 24, 2016 by TrevorR