4-piece band + backing tracks for guitarist. Hmmmm...

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1477308402' post='3161215']
I suspect I'm one of the militant ones - if you use backing tracks it's simply a type of Karaoke IMHO.. Or playing along to stuff on the radio :-)
[/quote]
depends how you do it to be fair.

if we are talking some sh*t midi stuff downloaded from a website, then it will sound like kareoke.

if however the band have prerecorded everything themselves properly to create a wider sound for the band its not an issue. my band is currently a 3 piece, and we are considering recording everything ourselves and playing to backing tracks to include the sound of piano's, synths, strings etc which clearly we can't all cover on stage and generally we don't have stages big enough to fit the amount of people we'd need to get the sound live.

arguably you could say it takes a better band to play to backing tracks because everything needs to be in time, and sloppy, out of time or poor playing will show up.

the technology is there to allow us to create a bigger and more varied palette of sound on stage that 3 or 4 guys can't create alone. if it improves the stage show then i'm all for it.

[markstuk]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1477310294' post='3161241']
depends how you do it to be fair.

if we are talking some sh*t midi stuff downloaded from a website, then it will sound like kareoke.

if however the band have prerecorded everything themselves properly to create a wider sound for the band its not an issue. my band is currently a 3 piece, and we are considering recording everything ourselves and playing to backing tracks to include the sound of piano's, synths, strings etc which clearly we can't all cover on stage and generally we don't have stages big enough to fit the amount of people we'd need to get the sound live.

arguably you could say it takes a better band to play to backing tracks because everything needs to be in time, and sloppy, out of time or poor playing will show up.

the technology is there to allow us to create a bigger and more varied palette of sound on stage that 3 or 4 guys can't create alone. if it improves the stage show then i'm all for it.
[/quote]

So you're just playing along to your own record? :-) Why not go the whole hog and just mime ? It would probably make a better stage show... :-)

Edited October 24, 2016 by markstuk

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1477310552' post='3161242']
So you're just playing along to your own record? :-) Why not go the whole hog and just mime ? It would probably make a better stage show... :-)
[/quote]
parts of it yes, how else do you achieve a large amount of instrumentation with 3 people?

or are you suggesting that we just record 1 set of drums, one guitar and one bass and just be happy with that? world would be pretty boring if everyone did that

Edited October 24, 2016 by RockfordStone

[lowland]

[quote name='mrtcat' timestamp='1477223638' post='3160629']
Wow that's pretty militant.

We use tracks for horns and strings. We have a great keys player but it always sounds more natural if he is freed up to concentrate on more piano, Rhodes, moog and synth stuff. If a drummer can work well with click then it's a great way to improve the overall size and depth of sound.

Monitoring is really important if you are using tracks. We all use in ears for best results. It does take away some flexibility but, if used only when beneficial to the song, is a great tool to have.

That said, if it was just to cover a shortfall in a guitarists ability to fill space, I'd be more inclined to ditch the guitarist. Why he needs to fill space is another question that should be asked. Unless you are doing big rock songs then you shouldn't need more fill from him.
[/quote]

+1. We use backing parts played off the drummer's Roland pad to fill out here and there, plus he gets a click in his IEMs. The aforementioned strings and horns, plus we sometimes have small perc. elements going (the bongos on the dropdown of 'Let's Dance' come to mind), occasional BV parts to fill out what we're already doing live and once in a while rhythm guitars during guitar solos. We're a 5 piece pub and functions band and could manage without these things, but choose to use them because for us they enhance something that's already half decent.

Edited October 24, 2016 by lowland

[markstuk]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1477310833' post='3161248']
parts of it yes, it may shock you, but lots of big bands augment their sounds with backing tracks
[/quote]

I am entirely aware of this. .. Still does not make it live music... It may be a great experience, but so is going to the the flicks..

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1477311102' post='3161252']
I am entirely aware of this. .. Still does not make it live music... It may be a great experience, but so is going to the the flicks..
[/quote]
well that's you're opinion, we are going to have to agree to disagree

[markstuk]

[quote name='RockfordStone' timestamp='1477311239' post='3161256']
well that's you're opinion, we are going to have to agree to disagree
[/quote]

Indeed - and I always assumed that this would be the case - thus my initial "In my humble opinion"...

Of course the folkies would suggest my using electricity to make music is not "real music" .. :-)

[stingrayPete1977]

One of my 3 piece bands has a guitarist with a synth and a looper, we do Imagine and space oddity with only three people on stage.

[Stylon Pilson]

I was at a gig the other weekend where a band were using backing tracks to beef up the sound, and I found it totally unthrilling. Yes, they were in time, and yes it all sounded very rich and well-produced, but there was no feeling of immediacy, no connection. When I'm at a gig I want there to be a one-to-one correlation between what I'm seeing, and the noises that I'm hearing. Anything less than that and I just end up spending the entire gig fixating on which parts are live and which parts are recorded, trying to mentally calculate some sort of authenticity quotient.

S.P.

[stingrayPete1977]

How long does a sample triggered by a real person need to last before we are classing it as miming?

As a youngster I spent a lot of the 80s trying to work out what noise was coming from where or what the other bloke in the pet shop boys was for on shows like totp.

I see a lot of these 'stars' from yesteryear performing some old classics on tv and they need six guitarists, five of them on clean sounding Fender Strats! Wtf is that about?

Edited October 24, 2016 by stingrayPete1977

[VTypeV4]

I've mixed lots of function bands as part of their audition process for one of the largest booking agents in the country. Probably more than 70% were drums, bass, guitar (sometimes two) and some sort of sequence track usually on a lap top with the drummer playing to a click. For some it worked really well, others sounded flat.. Seems very popular on the 'modern pop / classic covers' function type group scene.

[crez5150]

[quote name='VTypeV4' timestamp='1477312867' post='3161285']
I've mixed lots of function bands as part of their audition process for one of the largest booking agents in the country. Probably more than 70% were drums, bass, guitar (sometimes two) and some sort of sequence track usually on a lap top with the drummer playing to a click. For some it worked really well, others sounded flat.. Seems very popular on the 'modern pop / classic covers' function type group scene.
[/quote]

Yes I see these requests from agents a lot. They always are asking for 'High Tech' duo's, trio's which always makes me smile.

[lowland]

[quote name='Stylon Pilson' timestamp='1477312337' post='3161277']
I was at a gig the other weekend where a band were using backing tracks to beef up the sound, and I found it totally unthrilling. Yes, they were in time, and yes it all sounded very rich and well-produced, but there was no feeling of immediacy, no connection. When I'm at a gig I want there to be a one-to-one correlation between what I'm seeing, and the noises that I'm hearing. Anything less than that and I just end up spending the entire gig fixating on which parts are live and which parts are recorded, trying to mentally calculate some sort of authenticity quotient.

S.P.
[/quote]

Good points - yes, unsubtle use of BTs can come across that way if overcooked.

I'd like to think that in our case we use just enough to make things a little bigger in the right places, but never so much it becomes plastic-sounding. Three of us are sound engineers (1 mastering, 1 mastering with a record production background and 1 studio owner/recordist/mixer) with a lot of experience between us, so - in theory anyway! - we should be able to make it work.

Edited October 24, 2016 by lowland

[solo4652]

Thanks to everyone for helping me think this through. I have no experience of playing with backing tracks and my gut feeling is that I don't really want to. Trying to be open minded, I'd just about be happy to have a virtual sax player for Baker Street or maybe some strings for Elbow. However, my feeling is that if the tracks are a semi-permanent feature of the band that flesh out the guitarist's sound without adding any new instrumentation, then I'd politely decline. Clearly I need to find out a bit more about what the band will use the backing tracks for, how often, and what exactly will be on them.

Can't give an update because my three attempts to speak to the drummer have so far gone unanswered.

Edited October 24, 2016 by solo4652

[lowdown]

[quote name='lowland' timestamp='1477314215' post='3161305']
Three of us are sound engineers (1 mastering, 1 mastering with a record production background and 1 studio owner/recordist/mixer) with a lot of experience between us, so - in theory anyway! - we should be able to make it work.
[/quote]

I am sure there must be a light bulb gag in there somewhere.

[lowdown]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1477314543' post='3161308']
Can't give an update because my three attempts to speak to the drummer have so far gone unanswered.
[/quote]

Understandable if it's this guy - He is really busy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH6hzTh3YHc

[lowland]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1477314697' post='3161313']
I am sure there must be a light bulb gag in there somewhere.

[/quote]

Haha! You're not wrong there...

How many sound engineers does it take to change a light bulb? "Sorry mate, I don't [i]do[/i] lights, just sound...".

[lowdown]

[quote name='lowland' timestamp='1477315254' post='3161321']
How many sound engineers does it take to change a light bulb? "Sorry mate, I don't [i]do[/i] lights, just sound...".
[/quote]

[RockfordStone]

[quote name='solo4652' timestamp='1477314543' post='3161308']
Thanks to everyone for helping me think this through. I have no experience of playing with backing tracks and my gut feeling is that I don't really want to. Trying to be open minded, I'd just about be happy to have a virtual sax player for Baker Street or maybe some strings for Elbow. However, my feeling is that if the tracks are a semi-permanent feature of the band that flesh out the guitarist's sound without adding any new instrumentation, then I'd politely decline. Clearly I need to find out a bit more about what the band will use the backing tracks for, how often, and what exactly will be on them.

Can't give an update because my three attempts to speak to the drummer have so far gone unanswered.
[/quote]
from a purely financial point of view, you don't have to pay a computers wages so you should get a bigger share than you would if there were two guitarists

[solo4652]

[quote name='lowdown' timestamp='1477314859' post='3161316']
Understandable if it's this guy - He is really busy.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yH6hzTh3YHc[/media]
[/quote]

I gave up when he said "cool" for the 7th time.

[mike257]

The Motown band I play with use tracks - it means we can go out as anything from a five piece to a ten piece and still play the same set - I'd prefer to always have at least six or seven of us, but if the client doesn't have the budget for that, would you rather stick by your "artistic integrity" of your working covers band (a concept I struggle to understand - you're playing what punters want to hear and are there to do a job, its not your magnum opus you're creating) but not be able to afford to fill your fridge that week? I'd rather stick the horns on playback for the night and pay the bills, if that's quite alright with you lot?

[Cato]

I suppose it's how you approach it.

I've seen a guitar duo doing covers with backing tracks who didn't really sound 'live' at all, apart from the vocals.

On the other hand I saw Carter USM a few times when they were a duo playing to backing tracks and they had superb energy every time.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Cato

[Les]

Did it years ago. It's not for me now but the public generally gets what the public deserves so hey ho why not ?

[blue]

[quote name='FinnDave' timestamp='1477214005' post='3160531']
I'd have thought that using backing tracks would make on the fly changes to songs a bit tricky. I wouldn't enjoy a band that stuck rigidly to a rehearsed set list with no room to improvise.
[/quote]

Dave, I love improvisation. I think it's a dying art.

Against my better judgement I recently went to an open mic. When I was called up me and the drummer started a groove improvising in G major 7th.


We were waiting for the young guitarist to come in. He didn't come in. He walked over to me and to and says;

'I only know songs"

?

Blue

[FinnDave]

I agree, Blue, there seem to be fewer people able to simply play, they have to have something recorded in their brains and just press the internal play button. It's only in the last few years that I've had to really learn songs, before that it was just a question of what key, what sort of feel, and go for it. I still much prefer to work that way, playing other people's basslines feels a bit wrong at time, like wearing their dirty socks.