Merton Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1477311423' post='3161260'] Not sure how this has turned into a Class D debate. I would really, really love to do a blind hearing test on some of you lot.... [/quote] Everything gets into a class d debate, or a BF vs the world debate, or an is it good for metal debate. There's no point living otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 [quote name='Merton' timestamp='1477311493' post='3161261'] Everything gets into a class d debate, or a BF vs the world debate, or an is it good for metal debate. There's no point living otherwise [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1477311423' post='3161260'] Not sure how this has turned into a Class D debate. I would really, really love to do a blind hearing test on some of you lot.... [/quote] Of course it was always going to... the Thread title points it that way as class D is an option in many amps available today and the OP was saying his amp is the best. And the SM1500 was one hell of an amp..all the SM's were upto a certain period. They don't make them like they used to Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477316099' post='3161332'] Of course it was always going to... the Thread title points it that way as class D is an option in many amps available today and the OP was saying his amp is the best.[/quote] I wouldn't be so bold to make that claim as there are too many amps that I haven't gigged (the only real test imho). My point was simply that I was surprised by the difference, and maybe in hindsight I shouldn't have been. I think I've posted the photo of the innards of the SM1500 before and its basically two massive toroidal transformers, hence the weight and my non-techy 'big iron' comment. [quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1477316099' post='3161332']And the SM1500 was one hell of an amp..all the SM's were upto a certain period. They don't make them like they used to [/quote] Agreed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 The spec of SM amps was always considered high or OTT. That is one reason I still have the SM400 dating around 1990. I do have a class D amp..and it is pretty good but it can't complete with my big block of Iron. Have I tried them all..no..just the popular ones that top out at around £600 so typically what appears here quite a lot but I'm not aware of any game changers as yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longtimefred Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Yup i'm with you on this one. It's gonna take one hell of an amp to knock the SVT2 off its perch. I honestly dont think it will come as people are happy to compromise for the weight saving and manufacturers clearly know this so will continue to build them like this. Stick a power stage out of the new Crown Macro-Tech I series in one and then we will talk and i will continue to use my muscles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 There's no substitute for serious power supplies. The lightweight switchmode one in my QSC PLX 3002 allows that power amp to put out enough real power to demolish an SM1500 - but it's still a 21lb 2U power amp, it isn't the side and weight of a paperback book! My previous power amp weighed twice as much and had a big iron power transformer - it was feeble compared to the SMPS driven QSC. There's a 'law' in cycling known as Bontrager's law - "Cheap. Strong. Light. Pick any two!" That pretty much holds true for bass amps and power amps, if strong equals having Real Power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazBeen Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Ha ha, I love these type of threads. The OP was comparing his SM vs his AG500, my response was based on my own experience with the AG vs the Mesa. Then lots of D Class sucks talk, and some NOOO, D Class is good, especially if it is made in Finland and finally (several people) sense that the reason most D Class amps sound feeble in certain conditions is due to the quality of the power supply. Loving it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 [quote name='HazBeen' timestamp='1477328742' post='3161476'] Ha ha, I love these type of threads. The OP was comparing his SM vs his AG500, my response was based on my own experience with the AG vs the Mesa. Then lots of D Class sucks talk, and some NOOO, D Class is good, especially if it is made in Finland and finally (several people) sense that the reason most D Class amps sound feeble in certain conditions is due to the quality of the power supply. Loving it! [/quote] You seem to have brought Finnish Class D in all by yourself. It's entertaining to read what goes on in people's heads, for sure!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1477311423' post='3161260'] Not sure how this has turned into a Class D debate. I would really, really love to do a blind hearing test on some of you lot.... [/quote] Yeah it had crossed my mind, I have 3 class d amps, a QSC 1.6Kw PA amp and a marshall DBA amp, would be interesting to record the same signal into all of them and see if anyone could tell them apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Most of the big band bands I've seen lately are using in ears and unmic's cabs, or no cabs at all, I like the idea of no amp at all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazBeen Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 [quote name='Kev' timestamp='1477330415' post='3161498'] You seem to have brought Finnish Class D in all by yourself. It's entertaining to read what goes on in people's heads, for sure!! [/quote] I have to admit, that was poetic license at work..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skychaserhigh Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 The Ashdown doesn't use the ICE power module , it is a much bigger thing they use. I'm not saying too much about big iron versus class D...got accused of imagining things last time..! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 The colouring of SWR amps definitely sounds good with bright sounding basses in my experience. For example, adding some girth to graphite necked instruments. The Hughes and Kettner Base 600 head I tried couple of years back did the same thing - not common but great sound. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/35922-hughes-and-kettner-bass-base-600-head/"]One was for sale on here many years ago too.[/url] I suspect it's a little lighter than an SM1500... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1477325961' post='3161449'] There's no substitute for serious power supplies. The lightweight switchmode one in my QSC PLX 3002 allows that power amp to put out enough real power to demolish an SM1500 - but it's still a 21lb 2U power amp, it isn't the side and weight of a paperback book! My previous power amp weighed twice as much and had a big iron power transformer - it was feeble compared to the SMPS driven QSC. There's a 'law' in cycling known as Bontrager's law - "Cheap. Strong. Light. Pick any two!" That pretty much holds true for bass amps and power amps, if strong equals having Real Power. [/quote] The weight in the PLX range is I believe down to the heatsinks required for the class H power section (which is a multi rail class AB ) , not the PSU. The latest QSC amps are class D and presumably use just as a good a PSU and are much lighter. The point being that it must be possible to weigh in under 10 lbs with the same "umf" - assuming that those later amps as as good as the PLX. Edited October 25, 2016 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 The real problem lies with the JET (Jargon Enhanced Topic) becoming such an ARE (acronym rich environment) leading to excessive pressure on the RSBT (Repeated Subject Boredom Threshold). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painy Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I have an AG500 which I love but to get the best out of it I have a pre-amp pedal (MXR Bass DI+) in front of it - although funnily enough not to to add 'heft' or lows (I feel the Head has plenty already) but to add a bit of sparkle to the highs. So I'd have to agree that I did feel the Aguilar had a certain something missing at first. My quest to fix that with other pedals that did also add lows (mainly Aphex Bass Xciter) have actually lead to a dead speaker in one of my cabs as you can see in my current thread on here. Turns out that missing something for me was crisper highs than the amp's own EQ was giving. Adding those highs with the pre-amp pedal seems to have allowed the rest of the frequencies more room to breath somehow (if that makes any sense). Anyhow, I'd put the sound that I had in last weekend's soundcheck (just before the speaker died ) up against any other 'big iron' rig I've owned and still be smiling so for me anything lacking in that head was just down to EQ not the power section - IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HazBeen Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 [quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1477376082' post='3161744'] The real problem lies with the JET (Jargon Enhanced Topic) becoming such an ARE (acronym rich environment) leading to excessive pressure on the RSBT (Repeated Subject Boredom Threshold). [/quote] Okay, that made me smile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 [quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1477325961' post='3161449'] There's no substitute for serious power supplies. The lightweight switchmode one in my QSC PLX 3002 allows that power amp to put out enough real power to demolish an SM1500 - but it's still a 21lb 2U power amp, it isn't the side and weight of a paperback book! My previous power amp weighed twice as much and had a big iron power transformer - it was feeble compared to the SMPS driven QSC. There's a 'law' in cycling known as Bontrager's law - "Cheap. Strong. Light. Pick any two!" That pretty much holds true for bass amps and power amps, if strong equals having Real Power. [/quote] Spot on Alex. Keith Bontrager's right and his saying applies to much more than cycling componentry. in the case of amplification, you can't beat a stiff (oooer) power supply. I have two old RSE power amps that deliver serious poke. Look inside and you find a high quality toroid and reservoir caps the size of bean tins. The larger one easilybetters my QSC RMX1450, despite a similar power rating. Can't be a coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beer of the Bass Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 (edited) [quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1477307170' post='3161201'] Settle down - 'car radio amps' is my tongue-in-cheek name for the micro crowd that use the ICE module. That the same modules are also used by charvas in their cars is just coincidence :-) [/quote] It would be a coincidence if it were true. But the ICEpower modules used in bass amps are power amps with an integrated power supply made to run on 120V/230V AC mains supplies, and car audio gear is made to run on a 12V or 24V DC battery supply. So I'd hazard a guess that the same modules are not being used in car audio. There are ICEpower modules used for that purpose, but they're not the same series. Edited October 25, 2016 by Beer of the Bass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 [quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1477391795' post='3161868'] It would be a coincidence if it were true. But the ICEpower modules used in bass amps are power amps with an integrated power supply made to run on 120V/230V AC mains supplies, and car audio gear is made to run on a 12V or 24V DC battery supply. So I'd hazard a guess that the same modules are not being used in car audio. [/quote] OK - I'm learning stuff here. Still don't like it :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_Bass Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 So... the OP changed from a 500W AG500 to a 1500W SM1500 and felt more "heft"? And people are saying is due to the toroidal transformer? And the extra headroom from having 3 times the power output doesn't play a part here? In that case my class-D Shuttle 9.2 is more "heftier" then the toroidal equipped 15W TE Boxer combo i have or the 280W GK RB400iv i had... We shouldn't mix things, we all know that a 500W toroidal amp, compared to a 500W SMPS, has more sub-lows (great for those who like it, i'm very happy without a muddy stage sound) and the greater the power output of an amp more headroom is available. So what's the news about the SM1500 sounding better? Even the SM900 would beat the c**p out of the Aggie. The SM400 would be a better comparison, both in the same muscle rank, the tone would be decisive factor there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E sharp Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 I've not long ago bought a CA-9 . Should I now hide? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Dean Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 [attachment=230752:ABM100 build.jpg][quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1477305715' post='3161185'] Still a class D though, which is the essential thrust of this thread... And given Ashdowns reluctance to release specs with any useful detail it's hard to make any real comparisons.. Or it's reviewed by someone with access to instrumentation like the guys as BassGear mag online.. Fancy popping the lid off you ABM1000 and taking some photos? [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LewisK1975 Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 [quote name='skychaserhigh' timestamp='1477349722' post='3161706'] The Ashdown doesn't use the ICE power module , it is a much bigger thing they use. I'm not saying too much about big iron versus class D...got accused of imagining things last time..! [/quote] Correct - it's an abletec unit. The ALC1000 to be precise. I have an ABM1000 and it's an absolute monster. And weighs less than 10kg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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