Problem with plek???

[Twincam]

Forgive me if I'm wrong and I could be.
It seems to me if a guitar has been on the pleck machine the frets have been adjusted to a certain neck relief.
But what happens if latter on you want to change string type and/or inevitably change the neck relief. Surley then the frets that have been optimised for a certain relief won't work as well.

Am I right in thinking that?

Edit this is about plek vs a traditional fret level.
Not plek vs nothing

Edited November 11, 2016 by Twincam

[Cato]

As I understand the idea of Plek is to make all the frets completely uniform in terms of height. Which I think is how they are ideally supposed to be.

I'm not even sure that the neck is on the guitar when they do it.

[Twincam]

[quote name='Cato' timestamp='1478801020' post='3171789']
As I understand the idea of Plek is to make all the frets completely uniform in terms of height. Which I think is how they are ideally supposed to be.

I'm not even sure that the neck is on the guitar when they do it.
[/quote]

No they cut the frets individually to follow an ideal height for a given neck relief. Which seems great if you only stick to that relief or type of strings with the same tension.

Surly if you put on different strings and a different relief then you alter the setup where the frets are going to be out of whack.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Cato' timestamp='1478801020' post='3171789']
I'm not even sure that the neck is on the guitar when they do it.
[/quote]

So how do they do set neck and through neck instruments?

[Cato]

This technical stuff is way over my head but there's a video about it here.

http://www.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Gear-Tech/en-us/What-the-Heck-is-PLEK.aspx

I was wrong about the neck not being attached to the body during the process.

[Dad3353]

I suppose (not being that much of an expert...) that it's a bit like motor cars. If one changes the make of tyre, or modifies the tyre pressures, then, ideally, as in F1 or similar, one should also set up the camber, and the shockers, and more still. That's what F1 and other stables do, but they're at the ultimate, high-end, 'every last micrometer counts' end of the scale. For mortals, there's no discernable difference, especially the way mortals use their cars (and basses...). Technically (and if one could afford to do so...), every tiny change could be matter for re-working the lot. For my part, I'm of the 'if it ain't busted, don't fix it' school, and once it's set up, I leave it alone. If I decide to change something, I'd look into the matter further only if I came across an issue. In general, I don't. I don't check the camber when I change tyres, either, but don't drive an F1, so...

Edited November 10, 2016 by Dad3353

[fleabag]

Amen dad

[mikel]

I have changed brand and gauge of strings many times with no intonation or fret buzz problems. Most fret problems seem to be from side to side on the same fret rather than differing heights of frets. On very low budget basses it may be and issue but that would probably be down to poor quality control rather than specialist fret relief.

[TrevorR]

Am I missing something? But surely if you have a bass strung with say 90s with a relief at the 12th fret of 0.XX mm and then you switch to 105s or 110s causing your neck to become banana shaped you'd adjust the truss rod to straighten the neck to bring the relief back into the regioin of 0.XX mm. In which case the Plek profiling of the frets still stands? No?

Plus what Dad says about how much difference under the fingers a small change in operating tolerances. Just because something is set up to be "ideal" in one configuration it doesn't mean it's utter rubbish the moment that configuration changes at all. It may still be perfectly acceptable at other quite different settings/set ups.

[HowieBass]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1478814774' post='3171939']
Am I missing something? But surely if you have a bass strung with say 90s with a relief at the 12th fret of 0.XX mm and then you switch to 105s or 110s causing your neck to become banana shaped you'd adjust the truss rod to straighten the neck to bring the relief back into the regioin of 0.XX mm. In which case the Plek profiling of the frets still stands? No?

Plus what Dad says about how much difference under the fingers a small change in operating tolerances. Just because something is set up to be "ideal" in one configuration it doesn't mean it's utter rubbish the moment that configuration changes at all. It may still be perfectly acceptable at other quite different settings/set ups.
[/quote]

+1 to this. AFAIK the Plek machine simulates the tension you'd have when the instrument is strung to pitch and the truss rod adjusted to give the correct relief. When I change strings I try to get the relief back to where it was previously.

[Twincam]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1478814774' post='3171939']
Am I missing something? But surely if you have a bass strung with say 90s with a relief at the 12th fret of 0.XX mm and then you switch to 105s or 110s causing your neck to become banana shaped you'd adjust the truss rod to straighten the neck to bring the relief back into the regioin of 0.XX mm. In which case the Plek profiling of the frets still stands? No?

Plus what Dad says about how much difference under the fingers a small change in operating tolerances. Just because something is set up to be "ideal" in one configuration it doesn't mean it's utter rubbish the moment that configuration changes at all. It may still be perfectly acceptable at other quite different settings/set ups.
[/quote]
[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1478817228' post='3171958']


+1 to this. AFAIK the Plek machine simulates the tension you'd have when the instrument is strung to pitch and the truss rod adjusted to give the correct relief. When I change strings I try to get the relief back to where it was previously.
[/quote]

Nope! Not all strings are the same tension at pitch. Flatwounds, rounds, tapes all different tension.
So you move your relief to the same level and guess what? The new chosen string vibrates more or less, and now you have frets cut at certain heights well your going to be further or closer to the frets when that string starts moving.

Its just not an acceptable setup. Unless you use the same strings and relief exactly every time.

And too add that not every string manufacture even at the same gauge and the same construction i.e. roundwound, will be the same tension at pitch...

Plek ruins versatility if your changing strings

Edited November 10, 2016 by Twincam

[Twincam]

I need to clarify that I'm talking about plek vs traditional luthiery.

Obviously plek will be better than nothing. But outside that imo its a con

[chris_b]

If you change your strings and have a problem then you adjust the truss rod, bridge, nut and possibly the fret heights as you would no matter who or what last set up your bass.

The Plek machine just automates the manual process so there is no difference in the end result between Plek and luthier.

You do not understand the Plek process so I'd refrain from calling it a con.

[mcnach]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1478825678' post='3172013']
The Plek machine just automates the manual process so there is no difference in the end result between Plek and luthier.
[/quote]

That's what my impression was too
Just a method to do one of the 'boring' (but important) parts of a setup it faster and more consistent.

[Twincam]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1478825678' post='3172013']
If you change your strings and have a problem then you adjust the truss rod, bridge, nut and possibly the fret heights as you would no matter who or what last set up your bass.

The Plek machine just automates the manual process so there is no difference in the end result between Plek and luthier.

You do not understand the Plek process so I'd refrain from calling it a con.
[/quote]

Actually its you that doesn't understand it. And I'm not trying to fall out with anyone. But I don't think people can see what I mean.

There's a difference in what the plek does to a traditional fret level and set up. I will try explain again.

What the plek machine does is it performs an analyses of a guitar neck with strings on and calculates what its neck relief should be, it also calculates any high or loelw frets but here is the big DIFFERENCE it then cuts frets to match the path of a certain neck relief to match the strings vibration path if you will. So it doesn't just level the frets the frets along the board are cut at different heights! A bit like how a luthier cuts relief into a double bass.
While a luthier sets up the frets with a straight neck and the frets are level to each other.
Plek frets if you straightened the neck wouldn't be level to each other as they are cut to match the neck relief it was set up for!

Hence when you put on a different string on a plek guitar, you then have an issue with frets been cut to match a different strings vibration arc so even if you change relief unless the strings are the same as the ones its set up for the frets are going to be messed up. And not as optimal as frets that were leveled straight to one another.

Does anyone get what I mean?
I probably shouldn't of said its a con. I mean that to me unless you use the same strings etc all the time its not as good a solution too a normal standard setup. And people pay extra for what I feel is a slightly flawed process.

If you set up a plek machine too level the frets equally when the neck is straight then its exactly the same as standard setup.
My issue is with cutting the frets on a neck with a pre determined relief then cutting frets to match a strings vibration. So the frets actually have a banana curve built into them.

By the way if I'm proved wrong I'm fully willing to say I was wrong. I'm pretty sure I have this correct if I have to start drawing pics of what I feel the issue is I will.

[TrevorR]

I think that there are a number of things here... yes, the settings on the Plek machine will optimise to a particular set of parameters, including string tension and gauge and neck relief. But just to remember, that just because it is optimised to that set up it doesn't mean that it will be unplayable with other set ups such as differences in string brand, gauge and tension. The chances are that it will be a perfectly good, perfectly playable (in fact probably still really really nice) set up which would feel much the same to any player. It just isn't "optimised" to that particular set of parameters. The tolerances which are being considered under the Plek system are tens and hundreds of thousands of an inch so I would question how much that level of optimisation actually matters.

The F1 analogy above kinda speaks to this. Yes, Lewis' engine and suspension are built and set up to that kind of engineering tolerance. His suspension settings are tweaked by 100ths of a mm. But that is to obtain a 0.001s advantage over a distance of 2 - 3 miles. In the real world on my car it would be impossible to tell the difference. If the settings on my suspension are 1mm different today compared to yesterday it is still a perfectly good, perfectly fit for purpose driving experience.

I suspect that we are talking the same thing with a Plek adjustment.

And then there is the question of consumer decisions. Let's look at my string buying habits... 1982-1986 Dean Markley 40-100s, 1986-1988 Albion Strings 40-100, 1988-2006 Bass Centre Stadium Elites 40-100, 2006-2012 Bass Centre Stadium Elites 45-105, 2012-2015 Picato 45-105, 2016-? LA Bella Deep Talkin' Bass flats 760FL 43-104...

I think I can safely walk into Charlie Chandlers and get my bass Plek'd without worrying that in six months time I'm going to have moved three different string types away from the optimised set up and that £120 spend on the Pleking will be a lasting investment. If someone is the sort who chops and changes their gauges and brands all the time then they can choose[list=1]
[*]not to go for a neck dress that bases the settings around a particular string and gauge or
[*]to go for a Plek on their current/new string choice in the full knowledge that if they change to another, a quick truss rod tweak to take account of string tensions will still give then a really nice playing neck even if it's not still "optimised" for those strings.
[/list]
It's a choice and a pretty benign one when it comes down to it.

One of both of my Wals have (I think) been Plek'd in a set up once and (if they were) it was a really nice set up. Or it might have just been a hand stoning and polishing - I can't remember and, frankly in a blind test I doubt I would have noticed a huge difference between the two in a blind test.

Add to that, I'm sure that the Plek descriptions (see here for the description at Charlie Chandlers' [url="http://www.guitarexperience.co.uk/plek-setup"]http://www.guitarexp...o.uk/plek-setup[/url] ) also contain a good deal of marketing guff about how much difference the "optimisation" process makes over a traditional set up. Doubly so since changes in where you pluck the string along its length (over fingerboard joint, neck or bridge pickup, close to the bridge) will make much bigger differences to the shape of the waveform created in the strings than swapping to a different gauge. Meaning that every time you shift right hand technique (or change from fingerstyle to pick or slap) you alter or undo the level of optimisation anyway. In summary, I suspect that there may be a bit of over-thinking and unnecessary worrying going on...!

Edited November 11, 2016 by TrevorR

[Twincam]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1478872955' post='3172277']
I think that there are a number of things here... yes, the settings on the Plek machine will optimise to a particular set of parameters, including string tension and gauge and neck relief. But just to remember, that just because it is optimised to that set up it doesn't mean that it will be unplayable with other set ups such as differences in string brand, gauge and tension. The chances are that it will be a perfectly good, perfectly playable (in fact probably still really really nice) set up which would feel much the same to any player. It just isn't "optimised" to that particular set of parameters. The tolerances which are being considered under the Plek system are tens and hundreds of thousands of an inch so I would question how much that level of optimisation actually matters.

The F1 analogy above kinda speaks to this. Yes, Lewis' engine and suspension are built and set up to that kind of engineering tolerance. His suspension settings are tweaked by 100ths of a mm. But that is to obtain a 0.001s advantage over a distance of 2 - 3 miles. In the real world on my car it would be impossible to tell the difference. If the settings on my suspension are 1mm different today compared to yesterday it is still a perfectly good, perfectly fit for purpose driving experience.

I suspect that we are talking the same thing with a Plek adjustment.

And then there is the question of consumer decisions. Let's look at my string buying habits... 1982-1986 Dean Markley 40-100s, 1986-1988 Albion Strings 40-100, 1988-2006 Bass Centre Stadium Elites 40-100, 2006-2012 Bass Centre Stadium Elites 45-105, 2012-2015 Picato 45-105, 2016-? LA Bella Deep Talkin' Bass flats 760FL 43-104...

I think I can safely walk into Charlie Chandlers and get my bass Plek'd without worrying that in six months time I'm going to have moved three different string types away from the optimised set up and that £120 spend on the Pleking will be a lasting investment. If someone is the sort who chops and changes their gauges and brands all the time then they can choose[list=1]
[*]not to go for a neck dress that bases the settings around a particular string and gauge or
[*]to go for a Plek on their current/new string choice in the full knowledge that if they change to another, a quick truss rod tweak to take account of string tensions will still give then a really nice playing neck even if it's not still "optimised" for those strings.
[/list]
It's a choice and a pretty benign one when it comes down to it.

One of both of my Wals have (I think) been Plek'd in a set up once and (if they were) it was a really nice set up. Or it might have just been a hand stoning and polishing - I can't remember and, frankly in a blind test I doubt I would have noticed a huge difference between the two in a blind test.

Add to that, I'm sure that the Plek descriptions (see here for the description at Charlie Chandlers' http://www.guitarexperience.co.uk/plek-setup ) also contain a good deal of marketing guff about how much difference the "optimisation" process makes over a traditional set up. In summary, I suspect that there may be a bit of over-thinking and unnecessary worrying going on...!
[/quote]

I've just been chatting via pm to chrisb and perhaps I should word posts better and more thoughtfully.

Plek will of course allow other strings and setups to be used. And still get better results than a instrument that's not had attention. It might could even work better in some instances.

Plek is very clever and I shouldn't of been so strong worded against it.
But I still believe that some players could notice it not being as good as a traditional process of setup if they often change setups etc and maybe for some setups it could cause issues. But others wouldn't.

I mean we are talking thousands of am inch not large variations.

I think plek isn't the be all and end all. As its made out to be.

[Twincam]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1478872955' post='3172277']
I suspect that there may be a bit of over-thinking and unnecessary worrying going on...!
[/quote]

You are probably right there.
Anyhow I hope I haven't fallen out with amyone.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Twincam

[chris_b]

XX
cheers
chris

[TrevorR]

Group hug!

[karlfer]

I'm old and dim, but just because a bass has been plek'd to optimum performance, that doesn't mean it's necessarily optimum performance for my (lack of) style/technique?

Or am I talking cobblers as usual

[chris_b]

It's not cobblers. Your technique is what it is. . . . but however good you are I bet you'll play better on a bass with a 5 mm action than one with a 10 or 15mm action.

The better your playing gets the more differences like that will matter. If your technique progresses you might notice the difference between 3mm and 5mm.

[fleabag]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1478875383' post='3172317']
I'm old and dim, but just because a bass has been plek'd to optimum performance, that doesn't mean it's necessarily optimum performance for my (lack of) style/technique?

Or am I talking cobblers as usual
[/quote]

Talking cobblers is a sport - and highly amusing . Carry on

Edited November 11, 2016 by fleabag

[dannybuoy]

So if we have a bass that has gone through the machine so that it set up to it's absolute optimum setup with one certain set of strings / neck relief, let's imagine that's 99% perfect. Change the strings or tweak the truss rod and it might drop to 90% perfect.

On the other hand a luthier doing everything manually without the precision or calculations offered by the machine would probably be lucky to get to that 90% spot in the first place. Then change the strings or tweak the truss and you might drop to 80%.

Your argument against the PLEK process, that changing the strings or relief after the setup result in a sub-optimal setup, surely also applies to the human luthier. If the process the luthier goes through gave better results than the PLEK, why would they not just change their model / algorithm to match whatever a human would do? I suspect it is currently doing a better job than most humans, assuming the brains behind the algorithm have everything correct.

Edited November 11, 2016 by dannybuoy

[karlfer]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1478879282' post='3172356']
It's not cobblers. Your technique is what it is. . . . but however good you are I bet you'll play better on a bass with a 5 mm action than one with a 10 or 15mm action.

The better your playing gets the more differences like that will matter. If your technique progresses you might notice the difference between 3mm and 5mm.
[/quote]

Yeah but how much better? Frets levelled, 4/64ths one side, 5/64ths other side, rest of the basses set up to the roughly recommended parameters.
I'll never be a virtuoso but that kind of set up allows me to play fast, accurate and multi stringed if the occassion demands.
The older I get and the more knowledge I get, the more I find the Fender is an amazing, versatile instrument. Regardless of which method of fret levelling is used.Kinda like the way Mr. Sheehan sets his basses up.

[quote name='fleabag' timestamp='1478879670' post='3172365']
Talking cobblers is a sport - and highly amusing . Carry on
[/quote]

FINALLY, a sport I might get decent at