Problem with plek???

[Twincam]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1478875383' post='3172317']
I'm old and dim, but just because a bass has been plek'd to optimum performance, that doesn't mean it's necessarily optimum performance for my (lack of) style/technique?

Or am I talking cobblers as usual
[/quote]

Actually you could ask for it to be pleked to a overall setup that suits you and it probably would be better than any other setup. So yes it could be fully optimised for your style technique level. I would think it could be time consuming to work this out, but deffinetly I could see a advantage in that over traditional setup methods.
How much improvement you feel would down to the individual. Some can play a bass no matter what the set up and some are more sensitive in that regard.

[Twincam]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1478882038' post='3172424']
So if we have a bass that has gone through the machine so that it set up to it's absolute optimum setup with one certain set of strings / neck relief, let's imagine that's 99% perfect. Change the strings or tweak the truss rod and it might drop to 90% perfect.

On the other hand a luthier doing everything manually without the precision or calculations offered by the machine would probably be lucky to get to that 90% spot in the first place. Then change the strings or tweak the truss and you might drop to 80%.

Your argument against the PLEK process, that changing the strings or relief after the setup result in a sub-optimal setup, surely also applies to the human luthier. If the process the luthier goes through gave better results than the PLEK, why would they not just change their model / algorithm to match whatever a human would do? I suspect it is currently doing a better job than most humans, assuming the brains behind the algorithm have everything correct.
[/quote]

Indeed I get what your saying but I believe that the results would drop a bit lower for the plek after changing setup.

And I honestly don't believe that a plek machine does better than a person.
In fact I will put my own fretwork up against a plek machine any day and that is not me being cocky.
They are not perfect they can't do details like fret edges or finally polishing like a human hand can.
Its like cnc vs hand carved.

[karlfer]

I made my original comment in the context that I've had plek'd basses.

I didn't really notice them to be greatly different to non-plek'd.

There again, I'm a ham fisted clod.

[fleabag]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1478882183' post='3172426']

FINALLY, a sport I might get decent at
[/quote]

I'm already profficient in this area - join the club !

[Twincam]

[quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1478882862' post='3172443']
I made my original comment in the context that I've had plek'd basses.

I didn't really notice them to be greatly different to non-plek'd.

There again, I'm a ham fisted clod.
[/quote]

Its a great human thing that we ain't all the same. I'm ham fisted too but sensitive to tiny changes in setup. I've played 2 pleked basses and thought they were excellently setup. But not anymore than a equally good traditional setup.

[Ghost_Bass]

I just can't understand why a plek'd bass can't be setup after a new string set to pretty much match the same neck relief it had with the previous set. Just use the old-proven method of adjusting in bits and look for fret-buzz, re-adjust and repeat... String gauge and tension would be of little significance unless people want to change from a .105 set to a .090 (in wich case, even with a tradicional setup it would allways need to take some attention from a luthier regarding the nut).

Plek or not, it doesn't bother me a bit. I setup all my necks straight as a ruller because a have a softer attack and i can get very low actions in my instruments, plek wouldn't make a difference for me.

[Twincam]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1478884119' post='3172461']
I just can't understand why a plek'd bass can't be setup after a new string set to pretty much match the same neck relief it had with the previous set. Just use the old-proven method of adjusting in bits and look for fret-buzz, re-adjust and repeat... String gauge and tension would be of little significance unless people want to change from a .105 set to a .090 (in wich case, even with a tradicional setup it would allways need to take some attention from a luthier regarding the nut).

Plek or not, it doesn't bother me a bit. I setup all my necks straight as a ruller because a have a softer attack and i can get very low actions in my instruments, plek wouldn't make a difference for me.
[/quote]

Because they adjust frets individually to match a certain relief and arc of the string. They are not levelled so to say.
So in my mind after you change different string and adjust relief the frets that are cut for another relief and string arc could be out of whack by a tiny amount. This could possibly affect the setup for some players.

The difference is probably minimal but still there.

Imo frets should be levelled on a straight neck. And should all be of the same height apart from some roll off at the end of the fingerboard. That way also has downsides and isn't as good as plek for 1 setup. But again imo it could be better for people who swap strings type and brand.

And in your case plek may help you get an even better setup. You could setup the neck totally straight. But have a tiny amount of relief cut into the frets by the machine.

Edited November 11, 2016 by Twincam

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1478884948' post='3172476']
Because they adjust frets individually to match a certain relief and arc of the string. They are not levelled so to say.
So in my mind after you change different string and adjust relief the frets that are cut for another relief and string arc could be out of whack by a tiny amount. This could possibly affect the setup for some players.

The difference is probably minimal but still there.

Imo frets should be levelled on a straight neck. And should all be of the same height apart from some roll off at the end of the fingerboard. That way also has downsides and isn't as good as plek for 1 setup. But again imo it could be better for people who swap strings type and brand.
[/quote]

I know what you're saying and completely understand your point and the same exact relief could only be obtained in ideal conditions but you'll never get wonky frets. The difference would be very minimal if the new setup is done properly and even though the new string may have a bigger "vibration arc" you can add a bit more relief in the neck paired with lowering the saddle to readjust for the new strings. In theory and inside my head this should be possible with minimal error on the final result but, as i've said, i'm not used to setup reliefs in my necks so i may be very wrong.

[Twincam]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1478885382' post='3172482']


I know what you're saying and completely understand your point and the same exact relief could only be obtained in ideal conditions but you'll never get wonky frets. The difference would be very minimal if the new setup is done properly and even though the new string may have a bigger "vibration arc" you can add a bit more relief in the neck paired with lowering the saddle to readjust for the new strings. In theory and inside my head this should be possible with minimal error on the final result but, as i've said, i'm not used to setup reliefs in my necks so i may be very wrong.
[/quote]

This is pretty much what I believe to be right.

Im thinking I was kinda right but the differences are so minimal maybe only the more sensitive players may notice (if at all).

So maybe plek won't cause problems like I initially thought. I would still like to test the theory a bit more but it looks like I was probably wrong as the tiny differences are possibly to small on this scale.

Now for my thread were I pick fault with the buzz feiten tuning system......
Only joking

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Twincam' timestamp='1478885924' post='3172491']
This is pretty much what I believe to be right.

Im thinking I was kinda right but the differences are so minimal maybe only the more sensitive players may notice (if at all).

So maybe plek won't cause problems like I initially thought. I would still like to test the theory a bit more but it looks like I was probably wrong as the tiny differences are possibly to small on this scale.

[b]Now for my thread were I pick fault with the buzz feiten tuning system[/b]......
Only joking
[/quote]

Whoa there!!! Calm down. I've just learned about plek today, let's leave this new technology thing i've also never heard of for next week.

[EMG456]

Twincam, I think what you may be missing about the Plek system and also what has not been mentioned by anyone on this thread is the inherent inconsistencies in a wooden neck.

In general, whether you like a fingerboard which is perfectly straight or you prefer varying amounts of relief, in both cases it is ideal for every fret to be the same height above the fingerboard. As has been stated, traditionally this has been achieved by levelling the frets with the neck straight. When the strings are then put on and tuned to tension, the neck is pulled into a forward bow which can then be corrected by applying tension to the back of the neck using the truss rod.

The problem is that whilst the truss rod can broadly compensate for the tension applied by the strings, it cannot *exactly* compensate due to various factors - the strings exert their pull at a point above the surface of the neck, the truss rod at a point buried inside the neck; the strings pull from the bridge to the headstock at an angle which varies depending on how far the neck has already been pulled forward; the truss rod pulls from usually around the nut to a point usually not as far as the end of the fingerboard etc. etc. Add in the fact that one piece of wood is likely to have varying stiffness, strength and density along its length and you can see that in precise terms, the amount of bend caused by these competing tensions is likely to vary along the length of the neck. Indeed, very few necks can be returned to absolute perfect straightness after all the tensions are applied and many necks tend to take on a mild s-bend shape with the truss rod seeming to apply more back bow down towards the first 7 or so frets and nothing at all at the top end of the fingerboard thus giving the classic "ski jump" at the top five or six frets. And this is of course assuming that the fingerboard was in fact perfectly straight to begin with - many are not.

What the Plek machine can do is measure the exact profile of the fingerboard *while* it is under string and truss rod tension. When the strings are then removed for the fret levelling, the machine knows exactly how much material to remove from every fret to make them completely level with each other *when the neck is once again under tension*.

On a beautifully constructed neck, using high quality and well chosen woods, carefully fretted and dressed by a master luthier, the end result is likely to be very similar. But all necks are not like that, all woods are not like that and indeed, all luthiers are not like that.

I have only one bass which has a Plek setup and I would say that it is equal to the best I have tried.

Cheers

Ed

[Twincam]

[quote name='EMG456' timestamp='1479047663' post='3173499']
Twincam, I think what you may be missing about the Plek system and also what has not been mentioned by anyone on this thread is the inherent inconsistencies in a wooden neck.

In general, whether you like a fingerboard which is perfectly straight or you prefer varying amounts of relief, in both cases it is ideal for every fret to be the same height above the fingerboard. As has been stated, traditionally this has been achieved by levelling the frets with the neck straight. When the strings are then put on and tuned to tension, the neck is pulled into a forward bow which can then be corrected by applying tension to the back of the neck using the truss rod.

The problem is that whilst the truss rod can broadly compensate for the tension applied by the strings, it cannot *exactly* compensate due to various factors - the strings exert their pull at a point above the surface of the neck, the truss rod at a point buried inside the neck; the strings pull from the bridge to the headstock at an angle which varies depending on how far the neck has already been pulled forward; the truss rod pulls from usually around the nut to a point usually not as far as the end of the fingerboard etc. etc. Add in the fact that one piece of wood is likely to have varying stiffness, strength and density along its length and you can see that in precise terms, the amount of bend caused by these competing tensions is likely to vary along the length of the neck. Indeed, very few necks can be returned to absolute perfect straightness after all the tensions are applied and many necks tend to take on a mild s-bend shape with the truss rod seeming to apply more back bow down towards the first 7 or so frets and nothing at all at the top end of the fingerboard thus giving the classic "ski jump" at the top five or six frets. And this is of course assuming that the fingerboard was in fact perfectly straight to begin with - many are not.

What the Plek machine can do is measure the exact profile of the fingerboard *while* it is under string and truss rod tension. When the strings are then removed for the fret levelling, the machine knows exactly how much material to remove from every fret to make them completely level with each other *when the neck is once again under tension*.

On a beautifully constructed neck, using high quality and well chosen woods, carefully fretted and dressed by a master luthier, the end result is likely to be very similar. But all necks are not like that, all woods are not like that and indeed, all luthiers are not like that.

I have only one bass which has a Plek setup and I would say that it is equal to the best I have tried.

Cheers

Ed
[/quote]

Indeed and that was part of my thinking in that plek could cause an issue because of how it analyses and cuts the frets. So I do know what it does and in detail. Because it sets it up perfectly its for that 1 setup relief and string tension. So when you put on different strings because the frets are cut for a different string tension and neck relief could it cause issues as the new strings are a different tension and won't exert the tension over the neck like another set of strings. Also they will have a different vibration arc so even if you put the relief the same the whole setup could be just enough out of whack to upset things.

After thinking of it more and reading others comments I do think now that even if it was slightly out the measurements differences are that small it should be totally fine anyhow.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Twincam

[HowieBass]

A string's vibrational modes don't change no matter what the gauge/tension - the nodes and antinodes are in the same places - they obviously need to be otherwise you'd have a problem with how pickup position affects tone. Lighter gauge strings are usually easier to move than heavier gauge strings and I think we all know that how someone plays (light touch versus a heavy touch) suggests what height action to go for... but I wouldn't change the relief or what height the frets are when I change my strings over from say a heavy to a lighter gauge - I'd either change the saddle heights or adapt my playing style or both. We also all know what years of playing does to a fret and again I'm not left with an unplayable instrument due to having lost several thousandths of an inch of metal here and there. I honestly believe that you're looking for a problem with Plek that doesn't exist.

[Twincam]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1479050978' post='3173534']
A string's vibrational modes don't change no matter what the gauge/tension - the nodes and antinodes are in the same places - they obviously need to be otherwise you'd have a problem with how pickup position affects tone. Lighter gauge strings are usually easier to move than heavier gauge strings and I think we all know that how someone plays (light touch versus a heavy touch) suggests what height action to go for... but I wouldn't change the relief or what height the frets are when I change my strings over from say a heavy to a lighter gauge - I'd either change the saddle heights or adapt my playing style or both. We also all know what years of playing does to a fret and again I'm not left with an unplayable instrument due to having lost several thousandths of an inch of metal here and there. I honestly believe that you're looking for a problem with Plek that doesn't exist.
[/quote]

And I've repeatedly said I accept that my initial thoughts while not totally wrong were wrong lol.

[Kiwi]

At risk of making things a little more complicated, the time I investigated Plekking I was informed that by a reputable music shop that it was a waste of money. Apparently the Plek machine didn't account for the inconsistent curve of the neck as it was under tension.

This was quite a few years ago so perhaps this issue has been addressed in software updates since.

[chris_b]

This is what shops say when they haven't got one.

That's exactly what Plek's do when they initially map the neck when it's under under tension.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG4BOLlKOb4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PG4BOLlKOb4[/url]

Edited November 14, 2016 by chris_b