The perfect Jazz/MM tone in one instrument.is there such a bass.?

[bubinga5]

The Lakland 5502 does a great job of putting together a jazz bass and a music man. But it doesn't quite get there. Doesnt truely sound like the full fat MM tone. And in the Jazz bass switching you dont really get that Jazz bass tone. not sure why and I do wonder why. Surely it's simple. Put 2 single coil pickups on a bass 70,s potition and then add another single coil inside to the bridge single coil. There we go a perfect MM sound switching to both rear, then switch to the outside coils. Voila.!!
I'm sure im missing something as I'm not a pickups expert. Why doesn't it work like that. Is it because of the nature or the humbucker of the music man that you can't split it in that way.? If not why not have a MM alnico then a rear jazz pickup then a jazz neck pickup.? Ok why not just have one big big pickup from the bridge to the neck.? Yes I'm getting carried away now

Edited November 16, 2016 by bubinga5

[drTStingray]

Simple reply - a twin pick up Stingray. You get Jazz-like coil selection at the click of a switch. The HS version does the Jazz best and the Lakland HS sound. And of course, a full fat Stingray H sound.

Go one further and the Musicman Reflex gives HSS capability with series/parallel and active passive.

Although some people may say otherwise I found the Lakland doesn't do a Stingray tone like a Stingray - I spent about six months in 2003 deciding what 5 string to buy - one thing I wanted was a Stingray tone. I tried Lakland, Warwick, Fender, Yamaha and others and eventually bought a Stingray 5 H - it's combination of parallel humbucker (classic Stingray tone), series humbucker (more Fenderish) and single coil bridge coil gives enough to satisfy my liking for Jaco tones, classic Stingray and more aggressive series tone were good enough for me.

I don't have a multi pick up Musicman 5 but I do have a 4HH and a Sabre. Either provide me with a good impression of a Marcus sound for certain songs I play.

I'm sure other people have differing views but this is my two penworth!!

All of the basses I tried had their own advantages - generally different. The Warwick Streamer Jazzman does a good Jazz and Humbucker sound - as does the Ibanez Musician. I agree the Lakland does a very nice version as well. I suspect the Dimension bass does as well though I've never tried one - do you get coil selection with those or do Fender still rely on two volumes and a tone?

Edited November 16, 2016 by drTStingray

[ZilchWoolham]

This would all depend on your definition of Jazz and Stingray tone, of course, but I suspect a Stingray and a Jazz pickup are just too different in construction for those two tones to exist within the same pickup. Even superficially they aren't exactly similar; a Jazz pickup doesn't look a whole lot like a Stingray pickup sawed in half.

Depending on the era of the pickups we could be dealing with different magnets, different wire, different everything between the two really. And of course the pole pieces will always be different. The pickup placement certainly makes a difference as well, although looking at images of a Stingray and the Lakland, the bridge pickup does seem to be very similarly placed.

Anyway, minor variations do make a difference when added up, so I think a reasonable approximation is as close as you're going to get, and depending on your needs, that might just be good enough.

Edited November 17, 2016 by ZilchWoolham

[drTStingray]

[quote name='ZilchWoolham' timestamp='1479344845' post='3175897']
This would all depend on your definition of Jazz and Stingray tone, of course, but I suspect a Stingray and a Jazz pickup are just too different in construction for those two tones to exist within the same pickup. Even superficially they aren't exactly similar; a Jazz pickup doesn't look a whole lot like a Stingray pickup sawed in half.

Depending on the era of the pickups we could be dealing with different magnets, different wire, different everything between the two really. And of course the pole pieces will always be different. The pickup placement certainly makes a difference as well, although looking at images of a Stingray and the Lakland, the bridge pickup does seem to be very similarly placed.

Anyway, minor variations do make a difference when added up, so I think a reasonable approximation is as close as you're going to get, and depending on your needs, that might just be good enough.
[/quote]

I think you're right - another significant difference is construction, which will affect tone and resonance. The Stingray has a huge bridge mass and deep rooted bolts connecting it to the body whereas a Fender has screws and a smaller flat plate - the neck joints are significantly different all contributing to substantially different transmission of sound and resonance through the instrument. I think this is also true of other makes like Lakland etc - all are very different from a Fender in detail. A Fender is also likely to have an alder body which will give a warmer sound compared to ash in other instruments (alder bodied Stingrays sound very mellow if my new 40th Anniversary is typical).

[ZilchWoolham]

^Very true. I was focusing on the pickup in isolation, but taking the construction into consideration, the differences could be even bigger. It's hard to say just how much the tone changes with a different bridge, neck construction etc. but eventually there are several reasons why not all basses sound alike.

Oh, and by the way, bubinga, Enfield Guitars do make something not entirely dissimilar to your hypothetical bridge-to-neck pickup. They share some similarities to the Musicman Reflex circuits drT mentioned, as well. I haven't tried one of their basses myself but I've only heard nice things about them.

[Burns-bass]

It may function wonderfully but that guitar is damn ugly.

[LukeFRC]

Clover aperion with the Delano hybrid system?
The hybrid system seems almost built to answer the question you're asking - I think it even switches passive for the jazz and switches in a 2 band eq for the ray sound

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1479634125' post='3177904']
Clover aperion with the Delano hybrid system?
The hybrid system seems almost built to answer the question you're asking - I think it even switches passive for the jazz and switches in a 2 band eq for the ray sound
[/quote]

I was going to say, isn't a considerable part of the 'stingray tone' down to it's electronics? I had a passive OLP some years ago. It had the pickup in the correct position but sounded nothing like a stingray

[dannybuoy]

There's a bargain custom made bass with 70s J + sweet spot MM configuration lurking in the classifieds somewhere. Sorry I can't remember the name of it!

[mcnach]

The 5-string Squier Jazz DeLuxe V (2-band active, ebanol fingerboard) was a curious animal. Wide fingerboard and string spacing at the bridge, with a bridge pickup mounted pretty much at the MM sweet spot. The electronics and pickups weren't amazing but they weren't bad at all and I think I paid £200 for mine, so a little upgrading would not hurt much. The bridge pickup did not sound like a Stingray, but it definitely had a certain air, purely because of the position. With the right pickup you could get a cool compromise, I bet. And there's always the option to route it for a MM type pickup as it'd cover the existing pickup route.

[ZilchWoolham]

[quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1479639311' post='3177966']
I was going to say, isn't a considerable part of the 'stingray tone' down to it's electronics? I had a passive OLP some years ago. It had the pickup in the correct position but sounded nothing like a stingray
[/quote]
There's another obvious factor I missed completely. And again it depends on what you think of when you think of Stingray tone. They have a 3-band as standard nowadays, right?

[ikay]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1479634125' post='3177904']
Clover aperion with the Delano hybrid system?
[/quote]
As with most J/MM style basses the MM pickup is a lot closer to the bridge than the Stingray sweet spot. The MM pup simply doesn't have the heft and grunt of an SR in that position. Pic below for comparison.

[URL=http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/iankay/media/Stuff/Clover-Stingray%20comparison.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/iankay/Stuff/Clover-Stingray%20comparison.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Edited November 20, 2016 by ikay

[mcnach]

[quote name='MoJo' timestamp='1479639311' post='3177966']
I was going to say, isn't a considerable part of the 'stingray tone' down to it's electronics? I had a passive OLP some years ago. It had the pickup in the correct position but sounded nothing like a stingray
[/quote]

A major factor is the position. If you don't get the position right, forget about it. Electronics will fine tune the sound. First and most important the pickup. A jazz pickup in the correct spot reminds you of a Stingray but it's not quite that, presumably largely because they're so narrow compared to a MM. A precision pickup in the right spot is MUCH closer... but still not quite there, although when you hear it the Stingray signature sound is there (all this comes from some experimentation I did a while ago using an old OLP body).

The preamp then allows you to get the range of tones that a Stingray can get... but does not *make it* a Stingray. My Stingray has a bypass switch. In passive mode it is unmistakeably a Stingray.

I owned 4 OLPs in total... and they varied, but the Stingray "flavour" was there, without doubt. The stock pickups were not great and were ceramic, but they largely sounded like something that belonged to the Stingray family (if you used both coils on, in the OLPs that were wired with each coil individually, if you only used one of them then it loses it). I sold one of the OLPs fast as it was not very good, but kept three for years. They all had replacement pickups and put preamps on them.
I was a big fan
One of them had a Seymour Duncan SMB4A (alnico, parallel, as a Stingray) and the partner Duncan 3-band preamp. It did not sound like a classic Ray but it was a Stingray sound nevertheless... just a bit... punchier and 'modern', more refined. It was awesome, but I preferred my Stingray.
Another had a Nordstrand MM4.2, which is supposed to be a close copy of the original, and a 2EQ preamp taken from my Stingray (I have a MMSR John East, as it's a similar 2EQ based on a 76 Ray + a delicious semiparametric mids module)... that one was most definitely a Stingray sound. I defretted it and later sold it... I wish I had kept it.
The third one has the SMB4A pickup again and a copy of the original 2EQ preamp... and it was very much a Stingray in sound too, althought that pickup is like a Stingray pickup that went to the gym a bit

So, there are a number of things that contribute... of which I think the position is the most important one and you can't compensate for it by electronics. If you get the right kind of pickup in the right place... the sound you get is definitely "Stingray family" and very recognisable, even if it's not quite a Stingray. Sometimes it could even be NICER than a Stingray, depending on your taste, I suppose.

The preamp is the thing that matters the least, but if you consider the versatility of the Stingray and how different people have recorded with one to produce very different tones... you're probably going to want a similar preamp to reproduce all those tones, but it'll sound like a Stingray regardless... that's why both 2EQ and 3EQ Stingrays still sound like a Stingray regardless.

[ikay]

A Stingray HS also doesn't quite do the Jazz thing. The S pickup is noticeably closer to the neck than a J and the bridge coil of the MM (for a coil split) is slightly north of a 60s J.

[URL=http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/iankay/media/Stuff/Stingray%20HS%20Jazz%20comparison.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1090.photobucket.com/albums/i370/iankay/Stuff/Stingray%20HS%20Jazz%20comparison.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1479656782' post='3178164']
...One of them had a Seymour Duncan SMB4A (alnico, parallel, as a Stingray) and the partner Duncan 3-band preamp.
[/quote]

Did you mod it or did you buy it like that? I'm only asking because that's exactly what I fitted to my blue OLP

[biro]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1479336008' post='3175838']
Simple reply - a twin pick up Stingray. You get Jazz-like coil selection at the click of a switch. The HS version does the Jazz best and the Lakland HS sound. And of course, a full fat Stingray H sound.

[/quote]

Actually, I don't think this is quite true. I have a Stingray 5HH—yes, I understand you said that the HS does the Jazz thing best—and It sounds miles away from a Jazz to be honest. Technically speaking, the HH should be capable of pulling out the same tone of the HS when using the inner coils. To my ears that does not, in any manner whatsoever, resemble a Jazz-type tone. The same applies to the use of the outer coils. Granted, I am not speaking about the possibility of using the individual coils soloed, but still, I think it's pretty far away from a jazz bass type of tone, which is actually something that troubles me.

In a way, my 35", neck-through. 6-string Ibanez BTB with Norstrand Big Singles sounds closer to a Jazz than my Stingray 5 HH does.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1479656385' post='3178159']
As with most J/MM style basses the MM pickup is a lot closer to the bridge than the Stingray sweet spot. The MM pup simply doesn't have the heft and grunt of an SR in that position. Pic below for comparison.

[url="http://s1090.photobucket.com/user/iankay/media/Stuff/Clover-Stingray%20comparison.jpg.html"][/url]
[/quote] fair enough! This is confusing me a bit - Might work something out....

[drTStingray]

[quote name='biro' timestamp='1479667770' post='3178307']


Actually, I don't think this is quite true. I have a Stingray 5HH—yes, I understand you said that the HS does the Jazz thing best—and It sounds miles away from a Jazz to be honest. Technically speaking, the HH should be capable of pulling out the same tone of the HS when using the inner coils. To my ears that does not, in any manner whatsoever, resemble a Jazz-type tone. The same applies to the use of the outer coils. Granted, I am not speaking about the possibility of using the individual coils soloed, but still, I think it's pretty far away from a jazz bass type of tone, which is actually something that troubles me.

In a way, my 35", neck-through. 6-string Ibanez BTB with Norstrand Big Singles sounds closer to a Jazz than my Stingray 5 HH does.
[/quote]

I think the inner coils sound more towards a P bass. The outer coils start to sound nasally not unlike a Jazz. Perhaps I'm thinking more an active Jazz than a passive one.

[LukeFRC]

started to draw a scale model... but someone had already done similar
[IMG]http://i42.tinypic.com/amyvj4.jpg[/IMG]

[stingrayPete1977]

My personal solution is to just have both

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1479669610' post='3178325']
started to draw a scale model... but someone had already done similar
[IMG]http://i42.tinypic.com/amyvj4.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]

The Lakland is 35" scale though.

[LukeFRC]

yeah and the fender line up with the bridge saddles and the others with the edge of the bridge.
Kinda want to make a model.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1479669926' post='3178335']
yeah and the fender line up with the bridge saddles and the others with the edge of the bridge.
Kinda want to make a model.
[/quote]

They have worked back from the 12th fret tbf, is the drawing scale correct though?

[stingrayPete1977]

Thinking about it the saddle positions would alter with string gauge and tension so all but the Lakland might be right?

[LukeFRC]

ok - so this is to scale based on measurements found online (i.e. if someone wants to lend me some basses I could make it better!)

(click and it will get bigger)

Edited November 20, 2016 by LukeFRC