Taxpayers money and music education

[Earbrass]

I'll take a Russian dictionary, please.

[Sammers]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1479480879' post='3176897']
Very right. But when I was growing up my I had access to learn and tried to learn recorder, violin and trumpet. (I failed miserably at them all.) But the chanced of me getting the money together to buy an instrument, other then the recorder, was zero.

Today many kids have enough cash passing through their hands to buy a decent instrument AND and amp!! They don't have the drive though. You need to have drive and passion.
[/quote]

A nicer instrument won't neccesarily mean they'll be more interested in it though.

What I mean is that if you don't give kids the opportunity you won't know which do and don't have the drive for it.
Because some don't doesn't mean we should take the chance from them to at least try and if this £300m gives more children more opportunity to just have a go, have at it!

[Owen]

There are all sorts of worse ways the government is AND could spend such money.

In the olden days no one blinked at music education budgets which nationally would easily surpass this. If we think education is expensive, consider the other option.

[Luulox]

There are far worse things for the government to spend money on. I am in favour of this.

[ambient]

This extra is nowhere near the money that they've cut from the budgets.

What always gets me, is out general attitude toward the arts in general. In the dark days of the Cold War and communism, the USSR placed great value on all of the arts, ballet, opera etc. This country money always comes first.

[Luulox]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1479490473' post='3176996']
This extra is nowhere near the money that they've cut from the budgets.

What always gets me, is out general attitude toward the arts in general. In the dark days of the Cold War and communism, the USSR placed great value on all of the arts, ballet, opera etc. This country money always comes first.
[/quote]
There does seem to be an attitude of 'I didn't have it so why should they' through out our country not just basschat. We didn't have a pot to pee in when I was young but I fail to see the point in trying to ensure that youngsters today should not have more than i had, nor do I begrudge them a few quid of my tax.

[TrevorR]

I also think that it's great news.

But, let's just ground the numbers in a bit of reality rather than throwing around meaningless numbers like £300m which are hard to actually visualise. What does that announcement actually mean?

It's £300m [i][b]over four years[/b][/i], so it's actually[b] £75m per year[/b].

There are about 24,000 schools in the UK and 8m pupils. So each year that's actually [b]£3000 per school [/b](we'll ignore the fact that maybe some funds might go to community music projects too) and [b]£9 per pupil[/b].

Let's presume that only one pupil in every class of about 30 pupils takes the benefit of the additional money (because the rest are plugged into their X-Boxes). So that's [b]£270 for the single pupil in the class taking up a musical instrument[/b], singing in a choir etc. Which is [b]about enough to part subsidise their music lessons[/b].

Whether or not you like the rhetoric of the government their aims is that "[i]Opportunities are open to all not just the privileged few to... learn to play an instrument, sing in a choir, join a band..[/i]."

The educational benefits which some form of a musical education can bring to those who are inclined and motivated are well documented. The discipline and application involved in learning an instrument are useful life lessons. The social, confidence building and developmental aspects of belonging to a group like a band, a choir or an orchestra are immeasurable - I know that singing in the school choir and in a local youth choir were absolutely formative and influential parts of my teenage years.

If in every classroom one more child gets to have that sort of musical exposure and experience than would otherwise have done that seems to me to be £9 per pupil well spent. My little boy loves singing in the local community youth choir of which he is a member. It's cemented friendships, grown his confidence in his abilities and, I am sure, will over the years open the door for experiences he would not otherwise have had. The same goes for all the other members of the junior, middle and senior choirs - from 4 years old to 18 plus. That choir only exists because of the dedication and vision of our two choir mistresses, the enthusiasm of the children and the fund raising which the parents do. If a little bit of the £300m ends up supporting that sort of community initiative too then that can only be a good thing and will be some of the better cash that Government distributes for the rest of this Parliament.

[ambient]

[quote name='TrevorR' timestamp='1479503013' post='3177144']
I also think that it's great news.

But, let's just ground the numbers in a bit of reality rather than throwing around meaningless numbers like £300m which are hard to actually visualise. What does that announcement actually mean?

It's £300m [i][b]over four years[/b][/i], so it's actually[b] £75m per year[/b].

There are about 24,000 schools in the UK and 8m pupils. So each year that's actually [b]£3000 per school [/b](we'll ignore the fact that maybe some funds might go to community music projects too) and [b]£9 per pupil[/b].

Let's presume that only one pupil in every class of about 30 pupils takes the benefit of the additional money (because the rest are plugged into their X-Boxes). So that's [b]£270 for the single pupil in the class taking up a musical instrument[/b], singing in a choir etc. Which is [b]about enough to part subsidise their music lessons[/b].

Whether or not you like the rhetoric of the government their aims is that "[i]Opportunities are open to all not just the privileged few to... learn to play an instrument, sing in a choir, join a band..[/i]."

The educational benefits which some form of a musical education can bring to those who are inclined and motivated are well documented. The discipline and application involved in learning an instrument are useful life lessons. The social, confidence building and developmental aspects of belonging to a group like a band, a choir or an orchestra are immeasurable - I know that singing in the school choir and in a local youth choir were absolutely formative and influential parts of my teenage years.

If in every classroom one more child gets to have that sort of musical exposure and experience than would otherwise have done that seems to me to be £9 per pupil well spent. My little boy loves singing in the local community youth choir of which he is a member. It's cemented friendships, grown his confidence in his abilities and, I am sure, will over the years open the door for experiences he would not otherwise have had. The same goes for all the other members of the junior, middle and senior choirs - from 4 years old to 18 plus. That choir only exists because of the dedication and vision of our two choir mistresses, the enthusiasm of the children and the fund raising which the parents do. If a little bit of the £300m ends up supporting that sort of community initiative too then that can only be a good thing and will be some of the better cash that Government distributes for the rest of this Parliament.
[/quote]

Fantastically said !

I can't believe not only this county's attitude toward the arts, but many on this site. You're supposed to be musicians ! Yet you begrudge some of your taxes going to fund musical education in schools.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1479490473' post='3176996']
In the dark days of the Cold War and communism, the USSR placed great value on all of the arts, ballet, opera etc.
[/quote]

Entirely true.

And you had to wait ten years to buy a bass guitar like this:




[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1479503306' post='3177147']
Fantastically said !

I can't believe not only this county's attitude toward the arts, but many on this site. You're supposed to be musicians ! Yet you begrudge some of your taxes going to fund musical education in schools.
[/quote]

I don't begrudge [i]your [/i]taxes going to fund musical education in schools. Just mine.

Plenty of [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Music_charities_based_in_the_United_Kingdom"]musical charities[/url] out there if anyone wants to send them a tenner.
[color=#ffffe0].[/color]

Edited November 18, 2016 by skankdelvar

[JoeEvans]

£300m has to cover about 6m school places, which I make to be £50 per child spread over four years, or £12.50 per child per year. So let's not get too excited about whether this is a good or a bad thing; in terms of education budgets, it's barely a thing at all.

[molan]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1479479831' post='3176890']
I think the Government is missing the point.

Take as an example...

Britain would like to do more trade in selling to Russia markets, so in the interests of promoting this I have a box of 250 Russian language dictionaries here. They're the best dictionary of it's kind available at only £3 each to you TODAY! PM me and one will be on it's way to you tonight!!

Come on then, aren't you going to PM me?

No, because you don't want to learn Russian. Why did you want to learn music? I guess it's cos you heard U2, Rolling Stones, Status Quo, or whoever, on stage, rocking with a passion. The beat hit you in the heart and you WANTED to ROCK!! It pumped your adrenalin.

The problem today is a cultural one. The kids are still listening to music we grew up with. (For them that's like watching their Dad dancing - so they don't identify with it) Too much contemporary music is singers/vocalists singing to what sounds like a computerise backing track. The lyrics are often interesting quirky raps. But does it move their souls?

My guess music today doesn't switch the passion on in the current generation. So, give them a cheap guitar.. or a Russian dictionary... it'll have the same effect.

What you're seeing is the Government "doing something" because folk are telling them that they need to promote music education.
Just the same as Trump is saying about getting Muslims in the USA to register. It won't achieve anything, but his supporters tell him the Government should "do something".
[/quote]

I couldn't disagree more. . .

[bazzbass]

I can't believe a musician thinks money spent on teaching music to kids is a waste

[Grangur]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1479512643' post='3177245']


I couldn't disagree more. . .
[/quote]

With what?

Are you saying that contemporary music has the young inspired, but they can't afford musical instruments?

They can afford Xboxes and the games to feed them.

But then we also now have food banks, or more to the point: We have sections of society being fed on charity.

[TimR]

What a bunch of f....ing moaners.

Wind it in guys!

£3000 a school A YEAR buys a lot of equipment that can be SHARED between pupils. Imagine what you'd buy with gas if you had £3k a year to spend.

As for the moaning about all kids want to do is play on computers, you're the parents, stop them! I get sick of this getting trotted out in the media. Then when the kids play in the streets all the grown ups complain about the noise and whether their precious cars are going to get scratched. Unbelievable. Kids are not all stuck at home on computers all day.

I spent a whole day at Olympia last Saturday at the drum show. Plenty of talented kids there playing drums and testing kit and bugging their parents to buy them £800 worth of cymbals (no son lets just get the hi-hats for Christmas and a set of sticks today.)

Electirc drum kit for under £300 excellent for learning on.

.

Edited November 19, 2016 by TimR

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1479503324' post='3177148']

I don't begrudge [i]your [/i]taxes going to fund musical education in schools. Just mine.

Plenty of [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Music_charities_based_in_the_United_Kingdom"]musical charities[/url] out there if anyone wants to send them a tenner.
[color=#ffffe0].[/color]
[/quote]

Why do you begrudge your taxes being spent in this way? How would you prefer it to be spent?

[molan]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1479529193' post='3177274']
With what?

[/quote]

The entire comment really.

The attempt at an analogy using Russian dictionaries isn't relevant and simply doesn't work.

Kids are not listening to music we grew up with - There's lots of new music around that's incredibly popular. May not be to your taste but it's readily available. Just turn on any radio station (or check YouTube or FaceBook music channels) listened to by school age kids and you'll hear some.

Sure there's a lot of vocal biased music but that's always been the way. Young kids now are using modern instruments and these will include sampling, synths, drum and rhythm tracks etc. That's just progress, a bit like musicians using a 'Fender bass' in the 50's & 60's instead of an upright.

Try going to a concert where acts are performing that are popular amongst younger people - the passion and feeling for their favourites is palpable and exciting to witness. You may not like the music but you can't question the passion at these events.

A secondary school local to me has really put some effort into generating interest and participation in music. Their main music room is now really large and has at least 20 decent quality Yamaha & Casio keyboards, quite a few laptops with recording and sampling software, a drum kit and lots of percussion and a couple of guitars. The walls are plastered with all sorts of inspiring and educational stuff. The school now has a great reputation for musical performances and the music room is a popular place.

They even let it out to people like our band to rehearse to keep it being used as regularly as possible as a music place.

All of this is really inspiring and great to experience. Putting more money into schemes and progressive thinking schools like this can only help to inspire more young people to enjoy music more.

[molan]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1479547129' post='3177338']
What a bunch of f....ing moaners.

Wind it in guys!

£3000 a school A YEAR buys a lot of equipment that can be SHARED between pupils. Imagine what you'd buy with gas if you had £3k a year to spend.

As for the moaning about all kids want to do is play on computers, you're the parents, stop them! I get sick of this getting trotted out in the media. Then when the kids play in the streets all the grown ups complain about the noise and whether their precious cars are going to get scratched. Unbelievable. Kids are not all stuck at home on computers all day.

I spent a whole day at Olympia last Saturday at the drum show. Plenty of talented kids there playing drums and testing kit and bugging their parents to buy them £800 worth of cymbals (no son lets just get the hi-hats for Christmas and a set of sticks today.)

Electirc drum kit for under £300 excellent for learning on.

.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more

[lowdown]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1479547129' post='3177338']
What a bunch of f....ing moaners.
Wind it in guys!
£3000 a school A YEAR buys a lot of equipment that can be SHARED between pupils. Imagine what you'd buy with gas if you had £3k a year to spend.
As for the moaning about all kids want to do is play on computers, you're the parents, stop them! I get sick of this getting trotted out in the media. Then when the kids play in the streets all the grown ups complain about the noise and whether their precious cars are going to get scratched. Unbelievable. Kids are not all stuck at home on computers all day.
I spent a whole day at Olympia last Saturday at the drum show. Plenty of talented kids there playing drums and testing kit and bugging their parents to buy them £800 worth of cymbals (no son lets just get the hi-hats for Christmas and a set of sticks today.)

Electirc drum kit for under £300 excellent for learning on.
[/quote]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1479558948' post='3177448']
The entire comment really.

The attempt at an analogy using Russian dictionaries isn't relevant and simply doesn't work.

Kids are not listening to music we grew up with - There's lots of new music around that's incredibly popular. May not be to your taste but it's readily available. Just turn on any radio station (or check YouTube or FaceBook music channels) listened to by school age kids and you'll hear some.

Sure there's a lot of vocal biased music but that's always been the way. Young kids now are using modern instruments and these will include sampling, synths, drum and rhythm tracks etc. That's just progress, a bit like musicians using a 'Fender bass' in the 50's & 60's instead of an upright.

Try going to a concert where acts are performing that are popular amongst younger people - the passion and feeling for their favourites is palpable and exciting to witness. You may not like the music but you can't question the passion at these events.

A secondary school local to me has really put some effort into generating interest and participation in music. Their main music room is now really large and has at least 20 decent quality Yamaha & Casio keyboards, quite a few laptops with recording and sampling software, a drum kit and lots of percussion and a couple of guitars. The walls are plastered with all sorts of inspiring and educational stuff. The school now has a great reputation for musical performances and the music room is a popular place.

They even let it out to people like our band to rehearse to keep it being used as regularly as possible as a music place.

All of this is really inspiring and great to experience. Putting more money into schemes and progressive thinking schools like this can only help to inspire more young people to enjoy music more.
[/quote]

[rushbo]

There have been some genuinely astonishing posts on this thread.

I've been working in music education since 1999. I teach in Birmingham - Chelmsley Wood. Brummies will tell you that it's an area with a number of problems and the residents tend not to be well-heeled city workers. As a consequence, many of the kids I teach come from families with little or no money and often have turbulent home lives. Unsurprisingly, behaviour issues are not uncommon at my school. When you sit down and talk to some of these kids, you’ll find that many have an interest in music – either as consumers or as people with aspirations to play. In many cases we can then offer them some assistance - the loan of an instrument or free or subsidised music lessons – as an incentive for them to improve their attendance and behaviour. These are not kids with an IPhone in their pocket and an Xbox at home. Some of these students live in chaos. Not all of those kids turn around in some Walt Disney-esque series of happy endings, but many of them do. For some of them, their music lesson is the reason they come to school and the transferable skills they develop, help them in every other aspect of their school and home lives.

Then there are the students who are already committed to music, but whose circumstances dictate that they have little or no money to buy kit. They proudly show me their second hand Benson, Stagg, Eastcoast instruments and play them at school. These kids go on to GCSE music and often struggle because they can’t afford lessons to help them develop, or afford to take a graded examination on their instrument. Universities are now accepting ABRSM/Rockschool/Trinity grades in addition to GCSE grades, so a grade 5 in theory or an instrument can make a huge difference to the educational future of a child. Once again, extra funding can help them with subsidised examinations.

In recent years, Arts funding in schools has dwindled to almost nothing – the focus has turned to pushing kids through their academic exams, to the detriment of almost everything else. We are in danger of returning to the “tambourine and out of tune piano” music class. Or worse, rooms with decent gear that no-one has time to play as students are herded into compulsory catch up lessons on “proper” subjects while music, dance and drama classes after school are empty.

Young people are still active consumers of music. Next time you’re in a newsagents, pick up a copy of Kerrang or Rocksound magazine. See all those funny looking bands you’ve never heard of? Kids go and see those bands every night of the week. Some of them might even be inspired enough by one of those bands you’ve never heard of to pick up an instrument.

A decent instrument has never been cheaper to buy and there are a number of perfectly decent, free bits of recording software available to download. But if you can’t afford an instrument or you have no physical person to support you when you are struggling, then frustration may derail you almost instantly. Extra funding in schools would help immeasurably.

To those of you who battled through adversity to master an instrument (and I am one of them…) congratulations. For every one of us there are others who would have benefitted from some timely support. I won’t go into detail as this post is long enough, but I have had students from incredibly difficult backgrounds go on to make records with Chris Tsangarides and DJ at many of the major clubs in Europe amongst others. These kids are now out there inspiring the next generation and keeping our industry buoyant in turbulent times. And you think this is unworthy of a few quid from your tax bill?

Edited November 19, 2016 by rushbo

[Grangur]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1479558948' post='3177448']
The entire comment really.

The attempt at an analogy using Russian dictionaries isn't relevant and simply doesn't work.

Kids are not listening to music we grew up with - There's lots of new music around that's incredibly popular. May not be to your taste but it's readily available. Just turn on any radio station (or check YouTube or FaceBook music channels) listened to by school age kids and you'll hear some.

Sure there's a lot of vocal biased music but that's always been the way. Young kids now are using modern instruments and these will include sampling, synths, drum and rhythm tracks etc. That's just progress, a bit like musicians using a 'Fender bass' in the 50's & 60's instead of an upright.

Try going to a concert where acts are performing that are popular amongst younger people - the passion and feeling for their favourites is palpable and exciting to witness. You may not like the music but you can't question the passion at these events.

A secondary school local to me has really put some effort into generating interest and participation in music. Their main music room is now really large and has at least 20 decent quality Yamaha & Casio keyboards, quite a few laptops with recording and sampling software, a drum kit and lots of percussion and a couple of guitars. The walls are plastered with all sorts of inspiring and educational stuff. The school now has a great reputation for musical performances and the music room is a popular place.

They even let it out to people like our band to rehearse to keep it being used as regularly as possible as a music place.

All of this is really inspiring and great to experience. Putting more money into schemes and progressive thinking schools like this can only help to inspire more young people to enjoy music more.
[/quote]
I can only speak about the area that I know and the kids I've met.
So your experience is different. It doesn't make either of us totally wrong. The truth is neither of us has done a national survey.

[molan]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1479560993' post='3177474']

I can only speak about the area that I know and the kids I've met.
So your experience is different. It doesn't make either of us totally wrong. The truth is neither of us has done a national survey.
[/quote]

To prove what?

Teachers and educators are the closest to today's children and they seem universally in favour of trying to develop an interest in music amongst their pupils.

Maybe we could ask 100 schools if they think this is a positive move - I think we could easily predict the result. . .

[rushbo]

Winston Churchill, speaking in 1938:

“The arts are essen­tial to any com­plete national life. The State owes it to itself to sus­tain and encour­age them….Ill fares the race which fails to salute the arts with the rev­er­ence and delight which are their due.”

[silverfoxnik]

I'm with rushbo, molan, ambient and TrevorR on this...and Mr Winston Churchill too.

In my opinion, learning how to play an instrument, collaborate with others in playing and performing music, developing your communication and interpersonal skills - whilst having a great time doing it and gaining a better sense of self-esteem in the process - are invaluable life lessons and experiences that stand you in good stead for the rest of your life!

My only negative thought about this initiative is the amount of money involved ; it'd produce much better long-term outcomes if they would put 5 or 10 times the amount of money into it.

Edited November 19, 2016 by silverfoxnik

[TimR]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1479560993' post='3177474']

I can only speak about the area that I know and the kids I've met.
So your experience is different. It doesn't make either of us totally wrong. The truth is neither of us has done a national survey.
[/quote]

The truth is yes, they can afford XBoxes and all the other stuff. XBoxes keep them in touch with their mates and give them something to talk about. When my boy meets a stranger in the park (because shock, horror, he does go outside) the conversation usually starts around gamer-tags. I could pretend I don't know what they are but I know enough about this being the equivalent of swapping phone numbers. When I was at school we talked about last nights TV programs.

These things are just as important now to the kids as musical instruments are. However, it's not one thing or another. It's a bit like me saying all you do is post on BassChat all day long. I'm sure you only do this when 'your mum lets you' or whatever the adult equivalent for us is.

.

Edited November 19, 2016 by TimR

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Barking Spiders' timestamp='1479461029' post='3176665']
So, the government plans to plough £300 million of taxpayers money over the next four years on music schemes designed to give more kids and teen the opportunity to learn an instrument. When they're cutting back on so much else is this really a good use our dosh?. At my eldest daughter's secondary school they already offer music lessons across a broad range of instruments but take up rates aren't high, including for guitar and drum kit. I think what the government have failed to consider that music generally doesn't cut it with kids the way it used to. Gaming's where it's at. Give most kids £250 and chances are they'd rather buy an X Box or an iPhone than a budget guitar or bass. In their world these have more kudos than a plank of wood with strings etc What say you?
[/quote]
I was listening to a article about this on the Today programme on the way to work. I think what's happened is that the government has massively cut the arts and music lessons budget. Then decided to give a small amount of it back.
So they've made a massive cut, but then announced a £300 million programme to part replace the bigger one that they just got rid of... politiks for you.

as to the rest of this thread...
<Rant> the idea we pay taxes to pay for the education of children has been established in the UK since the 19th century - it's a shame that our country has become so individualistic and selfish that you hear voices (even on here) suggesting we shouldn't do pay taxes for education. Bonkers.
Add to that our government massively cutting the funding for education and moving focus away from the arts. 'Cos of course music, and drawing is all just a waste of our kids time when they should be learning to read, write, and add up - or something like that - except for the fact that as a country we're only really really world class at a few things.... banking and financial industries... and art, design and music. And half the country has just shot us in the foot so we won't be the world leader for the financial sector for much longer leaving us with the creative sector... which we're just cutting funding too... </rant>