Rexel Matador Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 I was wondering, is there a commonly understood term for when a chord change or riff starts just before the first beat of the bar - like when the main riff to Enter Sandman kicks in, for example? I'm playing in a rock band with a drummer who is a bit too, shall we say, "relaxed" about such things, and as it happens a lot in the songs that we're playing, I want to be able to communicate effectively with the other members of the band and make sure we're all locked in. At the moment it sometimes sounds like we're not even playing the same song! Anyway, as it happens a lot in rock music, I thought maybe it has a name. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 I'd say "It's syncopated" as a catch-all term for "not on the beat". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_5 Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 We refer to it as a 'push'. Quite common in rock and essential in Motown/Soul music too. AC/DC have made a career out of syncopated blues, as have many others. If it helps then show this to your drummer, might help him to understand if he sees it as well as (not quite) listens to it... [URL=http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/paul_510/media/Sandman%20Push_zpsrgdus2uo.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd471/paul_510/Sandman%20Push_zpsrgdus2uo.jpg[/IMG][/URL] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexel Matador Posted November 19, 2016 Author Share Posted November 19, 2016 Push - I like that, thanks! I'll try and make it catch on in the band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mep Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 Definitely go with push. Been using that term for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexel Matador Posted November 19, 2016 Author Share Posted November 19, 2016 I'm surprised I've never heard it before. Maybe the rest of the band already know and we'll all live happily ever after! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Woodcock Posted November 19, 2016 Share Posted November 19, 2016 It's called an 'anacrusis' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexel Matador Posted November 20, 2016 Author Share Posted November 20, 2016 [quote name='Stickman' timestamp='1479599918' post='3177822'] It's called an 'anacrusis' [/quote] Interesting! Wow, I'm really glad I asked now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c2 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 [quote name='Stickman' timestamp='1479599918' post='3177822'] It's called an 'anacrusis' [/quote] Thanks for that! For some reason, I couldn't remember what they are called...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philparker Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 I offered up 'Anacrusis' as a potential band name, a couple of years ago, but nobody else would have it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 [quote name='philparker' timestamp='1479654026' post='3178135'] I offered up 'Anacrusis' as a potential band name, a couple of years ago, but nobody else would have it! [/quote] Anna Crusis would be a good stage name! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ras52 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 [quote name='Stickman' timestamp='1479599918' post='3177822'] It's called an 'anacrusis' [/quote] It depends A strict definition of an anacrusis might insist that it's unstressed, ahead of the downbeat - whereas here it's the stressed beat that's been brought forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c2 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 [quote name='paul_5' timestamp='1479571986' post='3177572'] We refer to it as a 'push'. Quite common in rock and essential in Motown/Soul music too. AC/DC have made a career out of syncopated blues, as have many others. If it helps then show this to your drummer, might help him to understand if he sees it as well as (not quite) listens to it... [url="http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/paul_510/media/Sandman%20Push_zpsrgdus2uo.jpg.html"][/url] [/quote] The above example isn't actually notated 100% correctly, if a part has an anacrusis then the repeat bars do not align with the normal bar lines. I'll find an example and post it. [quote name='ras52' timestamp='1479669501' post='3178322'] It depends A strict definition of an anacrusis might insist that it's unstressed, ahead of the downbeat - whereas here it's the stressed beat that's been brought forward. [/quote] The Enter Sandman is an example of syncopation. Without looking a bit more deeply into it, I can't tell if its a good/bad example of anacrusis too (something could be both an anacrusis and syncopated - but doesn't need to be syncopated to be an anacrusis - for example Happy Birthday isn't syncopated but is an anacrusis). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c2 Posted November 20, 2016 Share Posted November 20, 2016 [attachment=232409:espana.jpg] Sorry its such a bad example, but its the only one I have to hand. Note how the repeat bars at section B don't align with the normal barlines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jaywalker Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) . Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 [quote name='philparker' timestamp='1479654026' post='3178135'] I offered up 'Anacrusis' as a potential band name, a couple of years ago, but nobody else would have it! [/quote] You were way ahead of the times! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuddBass Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 It's an anticipation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c2 Posted November 21, 2016 Share Posted November 21, 2016 (edited) [quote name='The Jaywalker' timestamp='1479732999' post='3178783'] In my experience as a bassist and arranger the part is notated 100% correctly; with the repeat bars aligned with the normal barlines. I've very, very rarely come across parts notated like this orchestral one - when I have it has annoyed the hell out of the band! It looks like this may be an example of differing/evolving conventions between the jazz and classical worlds. As Jazz is effectively the applicable system of academic theory/harmony etc for rock/folk music I would suggest to the OP that he's on the right track with his notation convention. Bottom line: it's easier to read ;-) [/quote] Ok, "wrong" is a bit strong and its not necessarily wrong to notate as the Enter Sandman example, but its definitely incomplete and without the rest of the music, its a bit difficult to properly judge. The fact that the time signature is 4/4 but the first bar has 1 quaver in it, isn't right unless the last bar has 7 quavers - but then its incomplete. And the double bar before the key signature is definitely not right. I'm happy to concede that there's sometimes different ways to notate something and the "rules" of music notation are flexible enough that sometimes something which at first appears not right, is simply "convention" rather than being strictly right or wrong. I guess so long as its clear and understood then its alright. And yes, the Espana piece is a complete pain in the arse to play, the notes are very simple but the number of rests, and the fact that the other parts playing are far from clearly defining the pulse makes it difficult. On page 2 there is another "desert" of 25 or so bars rest. The first time we practised it it was a dog's breakfast, some people were 1 bar ahead, others were 1 bar behind. Edited November 21, 2016 by paul_c2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKenrick Posted November 22, 2016 Share Posted November 22, 2016 [quote name='paul_c2' timestamp='1479762892' post='3179135'] The fact that the time signature is 4/4 but the first bar has 1 quaver in it, isn't right unless the last bar has 7 quavers - but then it's incomplete. [/quote] Pedantry alert: this, I believe, is part of the joy of the modern anacrusis - any pickups into the first bar of a piece are generally notated without any rests preceding them and don't have to be 'balanced' by subtracting notes from bars at the end of the line. This is definitely a case of conventions having evolved over time from the 'rules' of classical notation. That Espana part is HORRIBLE to read, A.Carter needs a slap for awful chart writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted November 23, 2016 Share Posted November 23, 2016 [quote name='paul_c2' timestamp='1479762892' post='3179135'] Ok, "wrong" is a bit strong and its not necessarily wrong to notate as the Enter Sandman example, but its definitely incomplete and without the rest of the music, its a bit difficult to properly judge. The fact that the time signature is 4/4 but the first bar has 1 quaver in it, isn't right unless the last bar has 7 quavers - but then its incomplete. And the double bar before the key signature is definitely not right. I'm happy to concede that there's sometimes different ways to notate something and the "rules" of music notation are flexible enough that sometimes something which at first appears not right, is simply "convention" rather than being strictly right or wrong. I guess so long as its clear and understood then its alright. And yes, the Espana piece is a complete pain in the arse to play, the notes are very simple but the number of rests, and the fact that the other parts playing are far from clearly defining the pulse makes it difficult. On page 2 there is another "desert" of 25 or so bars rest. The first time we practised it it was a dog's breakfast, some people were 1 bar ahead, others were 1 bar behind. [/quote] 25 bars rest a desert? Try being 2nd trumpet in the Mozart piano concerto. 100 bars in a block, no double barlines or similar. So you sit there in rehearsal going 89 2 3 4, 90 2 3 4 and the conductor will stop and go 'back to 10 bars after A' and you have to do it all again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul_c2 Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 [quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1479929937' post='3180419'] 25 bars rest a desert? Try being 2nd trumpet in the Mozart piano concerto. 100 bars in a block, no double barlines or similar. So you sit there in rehearsal going 89 2 3 4, 90 2 3 4 and the conductor will stop and go 'back to 10 bars after A' and you have to do it all again! [/quote] Mega rests are quite common for brass, especially in the earlier pieces where it was originally for natural (not valved) trumpet. I bet the notes are all of the same harmonic series too, so you could sellotape one valve down and save pressing anything. For big rests, I try to remember, or even write in, a reliable cue so its not necessary to count lots of them. Plenty of pieces have the horns at just the start and end with 800-1000+ bars rest in between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted November 25, 2016 Share Posted November 25, 2016 Rests are an occupational hazard for brassists, you're right. I once went a masterclass with the late great James Watson who said the parts for the Covent Garden orchestra were marked with '15 minutes' etc to allow them to do trips to the bar! As to the thread topic, I don't think an anacrusis is technically tied to the first beat of the bar and my old grade V theory teacher would have rapped my knuckles if I didn't subtract the value from the last bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Wasn't there the instance of the percussionist who went to sleep during a five minute rest in a long piece. He then woke up, disoriented and hit the first thing he could find which was a large gong. Which brought the whole orchestra to a stop. So he turned to the audience, bowed and solemnly announced, 'Dinner is served'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scalpy Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 [quote name='bassace' timestamp='1481275082' post='3191091'] Wasn't there the instance of the percussionist who went to sleep during a five minute rest in a long piece. He then woke up, disoriented and hit the first thing he could find which was a large gong. Which brought the whole orchestra to a stop. So he turned to the audience, bowed and solemnly announced, 'Dinner is served'. [/quote] Gawd I hope that is true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassace Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 (edited) Sorry scalpy, it's an old musicians' joke. Edited December 9, 2016 by bassace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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