Warwick streamer advice please

[Grangur]

Al K wrote to me in a PM and I think most of what he asked is valuable to be here. I hope he won't mind me posting it here:

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1495233689']
Interesting - do you think the hum is due to it being single coil PUPs?

I know you didn't think much of the newer GPS basses when you were Bulgaria but I’m struggling to see what the material difference is between a fully German made and a German-started-Chinese-assembled GPS models, apart from about £3k?! They seem to have pretty much the same components but slightly less fancy finishing?

Here’s the same model of the bubinga wood of one of the two I quite liked from the Thomann website. Have a listen to the sound samples and tell me that doesn’t growl and sing?! (Which are your key tests and definitely influencing mine!)

[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/warwick_gps_corvette_5a_bubinga.htm?sid=ce5e80db6992409d1acf69daf8ad8b48"]https://www.thomann....acf69daf8ad8b48[/url]

Although if electronic hum/ buzz is going to be an issue, this could something in favour of the $$ version.

[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/warwick_gps_corvette_db_5_ash_nt.htm?sid=ca392a922e247e3f0fdadc85aae22b5d"]https://www.thomann....fdadc85aae22b5d[/url]

I guess I can test this point a bit more by having a play through my Sandberg tomorrow shorn of the noise from rest of the band: it has a J style single coil at the neck and humbucker at the bridge (both Delanos).

PS I just spotted that you neck humbuckers on your Streamer and single coils on your Corvette. Hmmm (excuse the sonic pun), but maybe the $$ is going to be the way forward for me. I think you're visit is starting to provide VERY nuanced guidance here!

PPS I think I've worked out why you don't have an issue with coil hum in Bishop’s Stortford, the key difference in Central London is that you can’t get away from tube and rail lines in London, particularly at rehearsals in studios housed under railway arches![/quote]

When i called round a problem we experienced was, on both Corvettes I have, there was a notable hum in the signal. I don't get this hum at home. Al K lives in central London. I live in Bishops Stortford - in leafy Hertfordshire.

[Cuzzie]

BS is a nice part of the world.

Al shared that with me also and it makes sense.

iPhones in pockets can also set high output pickups to hum as well.

ISP Decimator is always an option

[Al Krow]

Thanks both! If the ISP Decimator II works to eliminate coil hum without effecting tone then that seems to be a great solution, cheers Cuzzie, as it reopens all the single coil options with relatively minimal fuss.

Let me see what experiences with the ISP Decimator any of the other BCs have had on the effects thread - as its also likely to be of wider interest I suspect.

You gentlemen are stars!

[Grangur]

The hum, I would put down to the general electronic noise in the area - as you have suggested, Al K.

The 4 string Corvette you tried actually has the control cavity lined with aluminium screening. But it doesn't seem to have done a lot.

With respect to the Chinese Warwicks. IME, when trying them they simply lacked presence in their tone. They simply didn't have "heft". They didn't move me; none of them gave me any feelings of "buy me now!".

With respect to the finish, I wouldn't worry about this. there's nothing wrong with the finish that a rub down with very fine (2000 grit) paper and finish with Boiled Linseed oil and beeswax won't sort.

When I was rebuilding my 5 string, bubinga Corvette, I removed the neck bolts and lifted the neck. The body stayed on the neck. The neck didn't lift out, i was stuck. It's the tightest holding neck I've come across. This will give it the sound of a neck-through. I suspect the Chinese pockets are more like most other basses and will lift straight out. This is the sort of subtle difference you get in a better bass. The fine tolerances used in building a crafted bass are expensive to re-produce time and time again.

If I were you, I'd go for a $$ version - the double coil will help avoid hum. Check it out and be prepared to do some work:

1 - Rub down and refin the body.
2 - Add a veneer to the side(s) of the pocket - to make it tight. Then scrape the surfaces with a blade to get them just right for a tight fit.
3 - Change the pre-amp. Get one with Active & Passive.
4 - Change the pups to some that work passively.

After you've done that you'll have a bass that could be more like the German ones; for a good bit less than the cost of the German version.

The downside is, after doing all of that it is still a Chinese version with mods - so the re-sale value isn't necessarily up there with the German ones - but you need to weigh up the value of the money you'd lose on buying a new German version. Also, if/when you sell, you could take out all of the electrical stuff and convert it back to stock.

You could also try a pre-amp pedal, rather than in on-board version.

[Al Krow]

Thanks Grangur for those further thoughts. I think we need to clarify one important point, where I think we are at cross purposes:

There are three levels of finish (and price) we need to consider:

1. German - Master or Custom-built (the traditional "German" Warwicks)

2. German - GPS models, with standard materials (to get economies of scale) but often the same as the Master or Custom-built and importantly made in the same factory in Germany as the Master / Custom-built.

3. Purely Chinese assembled often with cheaper materials and finishing (the Rockbass line = MIM Fenders)

I agree with you about the Chinese Warwicks feeling a bit meh; my point here is that the GPS models [i]are[/i] German built but just a LOT more competitively priced i.e. circa £1,500 (GPS) vs £3,500+ (Masterbuilt) new. Obviously second hand prices can go a lot lower but I'm really not sure how much difference in quality there will be between a new and mint condition GPS and a 10 year old Masterbuilt?

The GPS $$, on the Thomann site [url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/warwick_gps_corvette_db_5_ash_nt.htm"]https://www.thomann....db_5_ash_nt.htm[/url], is already active / passive - so ticks that box and is German made so hopefully your first two points will also be [i]otiose [/i](such a good word and great to have an excuse to use it )? If not, I can get Leon at Grizzly guitars to have a look at re-working and also put some 500K pots in to complement the passive PUPs to replace the standard Warwick underpowered 25K pots. These don't cost anything much at all.

And it won't be a souped up Chinese Rockbass (which I did give some thought to as an option, but have been helpfully persuaded by a few of you to reconsider).

I'm hoping that Cuzzie's ISP Decimator II suggestion is going to deal with coil hum issue so that the single coil models are also an option...the growl and sing on the GPS bubinga model per the Thomann clips was rather gorgeous! Have a listen... [url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/warwick_gps_corvette_5a_bubinga.htm"]https://www.thomann...._5a_bubinga.htm[/url]

If I can get hold of a Warwick Corvette $$ bubinga (possibly a NT version) 5 string, with active / passive hardware, for a similar budget in really good condition, then I've probably found my ideal bass, but until then either of the above would seem to be wonderful options and a massive upgrade from the mushy Rockbass Streamer Standard 5, I returned last week.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Al Krow

[Grangur]

Al K. Please can you stop thinking of 500K as an "upgrade". This is simply a different value of pot. Neither is more expensive than the other. Neither is "better" than the other as there is zero difference in quality. Look at it like "upgrading" from a blue pen to a black pen - same thing, different end result.

The pot you need in the circuit is one of the correct value to get the sound you want.

500K Ohm pots are usually put in guitars with humbuckers as they enhance the treble frequencies. This might me a desirable feature in a guitar. I've had a few basses with 500K pots put in them. IMHO they sounded crap and I took them out.

[Al Krow]

Haha, I'm not thinking of it as an upgrade just getting the right powered pot for a passive PUP.

But that was probably the smallest point I was trying to make

However I don't know if we are on the same page on the more important point about German Masterbuilt vs GPS vs Chinese / Rockbass built? Or whether you are including the GPS models in your "Chinese" built category in your Bulgaria visit. My guess is that the volume of stock in that shop and the fact that you were in Sofia(?) and not more affluent London suggest that they were Rockbasses rather than the GPS models? Even Wunjos in Denmark St only has a couple of GPS in stock, most of the Warwicks there are Rockbasses.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Al Krow

[Grangur]

Chinese or German doesn't matter. How well set up is the CNC machine?
How much attention has been put into the match of the body to the neck?

Wrt pots. I'm sure you know what you're doing. I'm wrong in assuming you haven't thought through the effect of the change in impedance on the circuit and it's balance with the other components.

I apologise.

[Grangur]

The ones in Sofia were right across the range. I tried one Rockbass, but most I tried were GPS. I didn't want to try the German Masterbuilt as I didn't want to pay that much right now.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Grangur

[Al Krow]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1495277238' post='3302645']
Wrt pots. I'm sure you know what you're doing. I'm wrong in assuming you haven't thought through the effect of the change in impedance on the circuit and it's balance with the other components.

I apologise.
[/quote]

Lol! Of course I haven't considered. But that's why Leon is in business on Hackney Road with a guitar and bass workshop making a good (and honest) living and I'm a humble purveyor of other services. Sometimes I need to accept that other folk will know more about certain things and do a much better job than me. On the other hand I suspect Leon would probably suck as a bass player...

Here's a shameless plug for my favourite local craftsman: http://www.grizzlyguitars.co.uk/

Edited May 20, 2017 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

[attachment=245725:Warwick $$ 2007 (3).JPG]

I found one! It's not a Streamer, but it is a Warwick.

A $$ Corvette model (German made - 2007); humbucker PUPs with single or double coil selection and a choice of passive and active modes. Swamp Ash body, Ovangkol neck, Natural Oil finish.

In good condition, with a few dinks commensurate with being a 10 year old bass, but acquired for a negotiated price not far above the Warwick Rockbass Streamer Standard I returned last week.

I had the benefit of Grangur in tow, for a second opinion, with his SS1 to A/B and my Markbass to play through (the seller had an Orange TB 500 which has a lot more colour). We both agreed that the $$ was worth getting and had good tone and tonal variety.

Many thanks BC'ers for all your input on this and other related threads (particularly to Grangur for giving up his time, again, and sharing his expertise) and to the wise voices encouraging me to go for a quality bass, second hand, rather than settle for a lesser new model. I already know I will both enjoy playing this more and it will retain its value much better than the bass I have just returned.

Really looking to getting up to speed on 5 strings and getting to know this Warwick $$ bass over the coming weeks and months.

AK

Edited May 21, 2017 by Al Krow

[Cuzzie]

Well done and congrats.

How long till we see you starting a 6 string thread?!

[Al Krow]

Cheers buddy! And thanks for all your input and patience!

Lol! - I have a Fender Strat 1996 (MIM) (a poor man's Fender Strat), a Washburn HB 35 (a poor man's Gibson ES-335), a Crafter acoustic (a poor man's acousitc) and a Juan Orozco 1979 classical (actually that's not a bad classical guitar ). So if I combine them with a decent octaver pedal [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/302205-if-you-could-only-choose-one-octave-pedal/"]http://basschat.co.u...e-octave-pedal/[/url] then I think my 6 string ambitions are more than adequately catered for...

[Grangur]

Exactly Al, you've got it all covered.

There is NO such thing as a 6 string bass. All the ads for such a thing are simply photoshopped 5ers, honestly they are.

[Osiris]

[quote name='Al Krow' timestamp='1495389700' post='3303412']
[attachment=245725:Warwick $$ 2007 (3).JPG]

I found one! It's not a Streamer, but it is a Warwick.

A $$ model (German made- 2007); humbucker PUPs with single or double coil selection and a choice of passive and active modes. Swamp Ash body, Ovangkol neck, Natural Oil finish.

In good condition, with a few dinks commensurate with being a 10 year old bass, but acquired for a negotiated price not far above the Warwick Rockbass Streamer Standard I returned last week.

I had the benefit of Grangur in tow, for a second opinion, with his SS1 to A/B and my Markbass to play through (the seller had an Orange TB 500 which has a lot more colour). We both agreed that the $$ was worth getting and had good tone and tonal variety.

Many thanks BC'ers for all your input on this and other related threads (particularly to Grangur for giving up his time, again, and sharing his expertise) and to the wise voices encouraging me to go for a quality bass, second hand, rather than settle for a lesser new model. I already know I will both enjoy playing this more and it will retain its value much better than the bass I have just returned.

Really looking to getting up to speed on 5 strings and getting to know this Warwick $$ bass over the coming weeks and months.

AK
[/quote]

Looks great, let us know how you get on with it once you have put it through its paces

Edited May 21, 2017 by Osiris

[prowla]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1495273844' post='3302608']
Al K. Please can you stop thinking of 500K as an "upgrade". This is simply a different value of pot. Neither is more expensive than the other. Neither is "better" than the other as there is zero difference in quality. Look at it like "upgrading" from a blue pen to a black pen - same thing, different end result.

The pot you need in the circuit is one of the correct value to get the sound you want.

500K Ohm pots are usually put in guitars with humbuckers as they enhance the treble frequencies. This might me a desirable feature in a guitar. I've had a few basses with 500K pots put in them. IMHO they sounded crap and I took them out.
[/quote]
Yes, I'm not getting this idea that a bigger pot means better, or even that it enhances the treble or anything. As a general rule, the pot (on a passive) should be at least 10x the resistance of the pickup, so it the pickup is 10k then the pot should be >100k; by that token 250k or 500k (or 330k if you've got a Ric) shouldn't make much difference to the sound when turned fully on.

People also express the pickup resistance as "output", which is back-to-front. However, it may be an indicator of the length of wire used in winding the pickup, and thus the number of turns; it's the number of turns which (along with the strength of the magnet) defines the output.

(And, of course, the resistance is only a static measure; the impedance varies across different frequencies, so it is not a constant when you are playing the guitar.)

[Grangur]

[quote name='prowla' timestamp='1495402892' post='3303539']
Yes, I'm not getting this idea that a bigger pot means better, or even that it enhances the treble or anything. As a general rule, the pot (on a passive) should be at least 10x the resistance of the pickup, so it the pickup is 10k then the pot should be >100k; by that token 250k or 500k (or 330k if you've got a Ric) shouldn't make much difference to the sound when turned fully on.

People also express the pickup resistance as "output", which is back-to-front. However, it may be an indicator of the length of wire used in winding the pickup, and thus the number of turns; it's the number of turns which (along with the strength of the magnet) defines the output.

(And, of course, the resistance is only a static measure; the impedance varies across different frequencies, so it is not a constant when you are playing the guitar.)
[/quote]

The electronic theory behind this is with Passive pickups, the lower the resistive load of the pots, the more the resonant peaks of the pickups are attenuated, which translates to less treble. As a basic rule most modern humbuckers are tuned for 500K pots and most traditional singles for 250K.

You can use a lower value pot to tune a pickup thats too bright (ala les paul bridge pup), and conversely you can use higher value pots or remove pots entirely to give a warm humbucker more punch (ala charvel 80s single pup single volume). With passives the cable and the amp/pedal input stage all have a factor too as they all form part of the passive circuit, which is where a lot of the mojo between cetain amps and certain guitars traditionally happens.

This rule does not apply to active pups, as there is a preamp in between the pup and the pot that takes resistive load out of the equation, so usually you see 25K-100K pots used there.

In the case of a brand-new bass from a respected manufacturer, I would assume they know the impedance (and the inductance) of their pickups and they have selected the value of the pots for a reason, other than simply economy. In their situation of buying large quantities there will be no difference in cost.

Some years back I bought a Fender Jazz with the "500K upgrade". The sound was quite metallic. I changed them to 250K and the bass did come through a lot more. I guess, another option is to have the treble there, and simply use the tone pot to tune out as much of the treble as you want.

[prowla]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1495440619' post='3303645']
The electronic theory behind this is with Passive pickups, the lower the resistive load of the pots, the more the resonant peaks of the pickups are attenuated, which translates to less treble. As a basic rule most modern humbuckers are tuned for 500K pots and most traditional singles for 250K.

You can use a lower value pot to tune a pickup thats too bright (ala les paul bridge pup), and conversely you can use higher value pots or remove pots entirely to give a warm humbucker more punch (ala charvel 80s single pup single volume). With passives the cable and the amp/pedal input stage all have a factor too as they all form part of the passive circuit, which is where a lot of the mojo between cetain amps and certain guitars traditionally happens.

This rule does not apply to active pups, as there is a preamp in between the pup and the pot that takes resistive load out of the equation, so usually you see 25K-100K pots used there.

In the case of a brand-new bass from a respected manufacturer, I would assume they know the impedance (and the inductance) of their pickups and they have selected the value of the pots for a reason, other than simply economy. In their situation of buying large quantities there will be no difference in cost.

Some years back I bought a Fender Jazz with the "500K upgrade". The sound was quite metallic. I changed them to 250K and the bass did come through a lot more. I guess, another option is to have the treble there, and simply use the tone pot to tune out as much of the treble as you want.
[/quote]
Seems like I need to do some experimenting!

[prowla]

(Hope folks don't mind me posting in this thread...)

I gave the Warwick a clean and put a full set of strings on it; it's already looking way more respectable.

[Grangur]

Hey cool!! That's a great improvement. Enjoy the bass, Prowla.

[prowla]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1495486162' post='3304188']
Hey cool!! That's a great improvement. Enjoy the bass, Prowla.
[/quote]
Cheers.

I do need a knob for it - Warwick don't do those push-on ones anymore.

[Grangur]

[quote name='prowla' timestamp='1495560934' post='3304869']
Cheers.

I do need a knob for it - Warwick don't do those push-on ones anymore.
[/quote]

Hmmm... what size are they?
Tell me the diameter, I might have one.

[prowla]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1495562400' post='3304890']
Hmmm... what size are they?
Tell me the diameter, I might have one.
[/quote]
OK - here's some knob pictures!






It'd be great if you do have a spare one of those!

[Grangur]

The size is about right, but mine has a finer knurl on the sides.

[prowla]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1495573945' post='3305050']
The size is about right, but mine has a finer knurl on the sides.
[/quote]
I reckon they do subtle differences just to make things harder!

It's metal and has a bit of weight to it, but then has the plastic insert.