Theory

[thebigyin]

Morning Folks
What's your feelings on Theory??? Are you a big believer in learning your scales and modes, chord tones, arpeggios ect.
I must admit my lack of knowledge after many years of playing is beginning to get to me now, in the past i have played in quite a few Bands and blagged my way through ect.
I used to find the whole thought of learning Theory a chore but just recently i have started to learn a bit more about chord tones, inversions, scales and modes all simple at present even grasping simple intervals mainly 3rd's and 6th's, 5th and octaves as they seem to make the most sense at present....wish I had started learning theory awhile back now....any help or advice would be greatly appreciated Thanks and Cheers Bob

[Coilte]

It's never too late to learn some basic theory. It helps us to understand the "nuts and bolts" of music. Lots of people get by without knowing any, but this does not deem it to be unnecessary, or not useful.

For me, it's a no brainer to have some basic knowledge, like the things you list, though for now, I'd leave out the modes. IMO they are best tackled later, after you have the basics nailed.

Not sure what help you require. I'm sure people would be willing to help, if you ask.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Coilte

[thebigyin]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1480843916' post='3187413']
It's never too late to learn some basic theory. It helps us to understand the "nuts and bolts" of music. Lots of people get by without knowing any, but this does not deem it to be unnecessary, or not useful.

For me, it's a no brainer to have some basic knowledge, like the things you list, though for now, I'd leave out the modes. IMO they are best tackled later, after you have the basics nailed.

Not sure what help you require. I'm sure people would be willing to help, if you ask.
[/quote]
Thanks for your reply i have managed to nail a 1 octave modes in the key of C....both ascending and descending

[BassTractor]

I'm guessing that your expression "my lack of knowledge" is not entirely accurate. If your ears work, and I expect they do, then most chapters in the theory book should mainly tell you stuff you already know, whilst providing you with the the language to express that which you've known all along.

Some theory is hard on the angle of:
[i][b]In <situation>, you can only do <choice>[/b][/i].

Me, I don't like that (and it's wrong as well). I like the angle of:
[i][b]Is <existing snippet> good? How does it work on the listener? Why does it work on the listener like that?[/b][/i]


IOW, to me personally, theory is almost the same thing as music psychology. I don't care about rules as in "commands". I care about: "OMG! What did the composer do in order to make me love this so much?"

In this, to me the most central term is that of tension (stability, powers away from stability and powers back to stability), and this goes for harmonic content as well as rhythmic and melodic content.


So: don't go for the first theory book you see.
Find the one that is open to possibilities and freedom of choice.


We also had many threads about this, the last one (IMS) two months ago, that might provide some interesting views and experiences:
http://basschat.co.uk/topic/293119-theory-yes-please-or-a-bit-of-a-yawn/
This is not criticism, BTW. Just a heads up that stuff does exist in these boards that can still be read, and a possible explanation if you get fewer answers than expected.

[thebigyin]

[quote name='BassTractor' timestamp='1480845880' post='3187438']
I'm guessing that your expression "my lack of knowledge" is not entirely accurate. If your ears work, and I expect they do, then most chapters in the theory book should mainly tell you stuff you already know, whilst providing you with the the language to express that which you've known all along.

Some theory is hard on the angle of:
[i][b]In <situation>, you can only do <choice>[/b][/i].

Me, I don't like that (and it's wrong as well). I like the angle of:
[i][b]Is <existing snippet> good? How does it work on the listener? Why does it work on the listener like that?[/b][/i]


IOW, to me personally, theory is almost the same thing as music psychology. I don't care about rules as in "commands". I care about: "OMG! What did the composer do in order to make me love this so much?"

In this, to me the most central term is that of tension (stability, powers away from stability and powers back to stability), and this goes for harmonic content as well as rhythmic and melodic content.


So: don't go for the first theory book you see.
Find the one that is open to possibilities and freedom of choice.


We also had many threads about this, the last one (IMS) two months ago, that might provide some interesting views and experiences:
http://basschat.co.uk/topic/293119-theory-yes-please-or-a-bit-of-a-yawn/
This is not criticism, BTW. Just a heads up that stuff does exist in these boards that can still be read, and a possible explanation if you get fewer answers than expected.
[/quote]
I agree but i think i just wanted to get a bit more basic knowledge and skills rather than just learning songs ect. Just incase i was asked to play anything original or something
But like you say there are no hard fast rules and if something sounds good regardless of what so called theory is behind it. For me it's just to hopefully better my knowledge of the fretboard thanks for your reply

[wateroftyne]

If you're interested in the wider question[quote name='thebigyin' timestamp='1480843305' post='3187401']
Morning Folks
What's your feelings on Theory???
[/quote]

For an answer to this specific question, [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/293119-theory-yes-please-or-a-bit-of-a-yawn"]you could start here[/url].

[wateroftyne]

^^^^ Whoops - Mr. Tractor beat me to it.

[FinnDave]

To me, music theory is like grammar, it explains how/why things work rather than laying down the law on how to behave. More laws of physics than laws of the land. Descriptive, not prescriptive.

Edited December 4, 2016 by FinnDave

[JapanAxe]

Chord tones are probably the most important things to know. Work your way through this free online tutorial at your own pace:

http://www.studybass.com/study-guide/

[stingrayPete1977]

Even though I've never been particularly short on gigs and have no intention of doing it full time I still wish I'd started learning theory (in very broad term) years ago, I doubt I'd be gigging any more often but they'd probably be a higher standard of gig in the same category.

I have too many hobbies and not enough time to really get stuck in now.

[thebigyin]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1480848505' post='3187464']
Chord tones are probably the most important things to know. Work your way through this free online tutorial at your own pace:

http://www.studybass.com/study-guide/
[/quote]
Thankyou i will take a look

[thebigyin]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1480849404' post='3187473']
Even though I've never been particularly short on gigs and have no intention of doing it full time I still wish I'd started learning theory (in very broad term) years ago, I doubt I'd be gigging any more often but they'd probably be a higher standard of gig in the same category.

I have too many hobbies and not enough time to really get stuck in now.
[/quote]
I have just kinda semi retired only work part time now just fancy brushing up on things i've ignored i doubt very much that it will make me any better but just curious to know a bit more

[thebigyin]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1480848067' post='3187460']
^^^^ Whoops - Mr. Tractor beat me to it.
[/quote]
Thankyou i will have a gander later cheers

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='thebigyin' timestamp='1480849883' post='3187480']

I have just kinda semi retired only work part time now just fancy brushing up on things i've ignored i doubt very much that it will make me any better but just curious to know a bit more
[/quote]

Well I've never met anyone that said "I've been spending a few hours a week looking at theory and its made me a worse player! ", go for it.

[Coilte]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1480848505' post='3187464']
Chord tones are probably the most important things to know. Work your way through this free online tutorial at your own pace:

[url="http://www.studybass.com/study-guide/"]http://www.studybass.com/study-guide/[/url]
[/quote]


Plus one...for both chord tones and the "Studybass" site. No doubt that scales are important, but equally so, are chord tones.

"Studybass" deals with this topic here :

https://www.studybass.com/lessons/bass-chord-patterns/chord-tones-are-primary/

[lojo]

All knowledge is good

I have made a choice not to put time into it as I enjoying my covers functions work which I can do without much theory and have to many other things going on in my mid life.

Roll back the clock and I'll tell my teenage self to study it of course

[paul_c2]

I see theory like this:

The 'history' of music theory is that lots of composers did stuff/wrote stuff, and some of these composers works were pleasant while others didn't sound that good. Later, people 'analysed' what the successful ones did, and created the 'science' of music theory. Then, composers and others started getting taught music theory, as a shortcut to produce more "nice" sounding music and less "other" stuff. So its not so much a set of rules by which you must adhere to, rather an empirical analysis of what previously is thought to be nice music.

These days, there's more to theory than simply this set of guidelines, since its possible to analyse further and explain WHY things work well while others don't, too. And depending on the context and style of music, you can learn/apply theory but also ignore or deliberately go against it, to create different/interesting things. A case of "know the rules before breaking them".

I dare say what you've picked up by ear, is a rough understanding of theory for the particular style of music and playing you've done so far - so extending this knowledge will not be a difficult thing to do. Also, its no use learning something then not applying it, you'll just forget it again (or be inexperienced at applying it).

[paul_c2]

[quote name='thebigyin' timestamp='1480843305' post='3187401']
Morning Folks
What's your feelings on Theory??? Are you a big believer in learning your scales and modes, chord tones, arpeggios ect.
I must admit my lack of knowledge after many years of playing is beginning to get to me now, in the past i have played in quite a few Bands and blagged my way through ect.
I used to find the whole thought of learning Theory a chore but just recently i have started to learn a bit more about chord tones, inversions, scales and modes all simple at present even grasping simple intervals mainly 3rd's and 6th's, 5th and octaves as they seem to make the most sense at present....wish I had started learning theory awhile back now....any help or advice would be greatly appreciated Thanks and Cheers Bob
[/quote]

What kind of bands have you played in and how did you approach playing the bass (lines)? For example, did you simply seek out the tab of a song then learn it, or did you come up with your own bass lines, if so what was the starting point - simply trial/error from hearing the song (ie by ear), or were you given the chord progression, etc.

[PaulWarning]

scales on bass are quiet easy really because unlike a guitar all strings go up in 5 fret intervals, so once you're got a scale shape it's movable everywhere, start with major and minor scales it does help to understand why you're playing certain notes, although it's not essential, quiet often I'll play a bass run that doesn't follow those scales sounds alright though, I was doing a bass run for years before I found out it was the pentatonic minor scale

Edited December 4, 2016 by PaulWarning

[thebigyin]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1480850079' post='3187487']


Well I've never met anyone that said "I've been spending a few hours a week looking at theory and its made me a worse player! ", go for it.
[/quote]
Cheers Pete yeah i don't think it will do any harm plus it's something to give one incentive to practice more

[thebigyin]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1480857822' post='3187572']
scales on bass are quiet easy really because unlike a guitar all strings go up in 5 fret intervals, so once you're got a scale shape it's movable everywhere, start with major and minor scales it does help to understand why you're playing certain notes, although it's not essential, quiet often I'll play a bass run that doesn't follow those scales sounds alright though, I was doing a bass run for years before I found out it was the pentatonic minor scale
[/quote]
Aye i agree Paul your ears instantly tell you if something doesn't sound right

[thebigyin]

[quote name='paul_c2' timestamp='1480857413' post='3187564']


What kind of bands have you played in and how did you approach playing the bass (lines)? For example, did you simply seek out the tab of a song then learn it, or did you come up with your own bass lines, if so what was the starting point - simply trial/error from hearing the song (ie by ear), or were you given the chord progression, etc.
[/quote]
A lot of times Paul i would sit and try learn the lines along with the songs. But on a few occasions i have gone down to a Band rehearsal not knowing there set and blagged it by writing down the chords and just root noting and the occasional fill or if it's been Rock and roll or Blues just a basic walking line
I have been out of the scene for quite some time through work but I have reduced my hours now and picked up the Bass again but unfortunately no Band at the moment so i have started trying to educate myself better by learning some theory ect

[thebigyin]

[quote name='paul_c2' timestamp='1480857265' post='3187563']
I see theory like this:

The 'history' of music theory is that lots of composers did stuff/wrote stuff, and some of these composers works were pleasant while others didn't sound that good. Later, people 'analysed' what the successful ones did, and created the 'science' of music theory. Then, composers and others started getting taught music theory, as a shortcut to produce more "nice" sounding music and less "other" stuff. So its not so much a set of rules by which you must adhere to, rather an empirical analysis of what previously is thought to be nice music.

These days, there's more to theory than simply this set of guidelines, since its possible to analyse further and explain WHY things work well while others don't, too. And depending on the context and style of music, you can learn/apply theory but also ignore or deliberately go against it, to create different/interesting things. A case of "know the rules before breaking them".

I dare say what you've picked up by ear, is a rough understanding of theory for the particular style of music and playing you've done so far - so extending this knowledge will not be a difficult thing to do. Also, its no use learning something then not applying it, you'll just forget it again (or be inexperienced at applying it).
[/quote]
Thanks some interesting points i think in the past i have tended to play it safe a very less is more approach which I still feel is important especially for a Bassist i think I really just want a bit more knowledge to maybe get a bit more adventurous if needed cheers Bob

[paul_c2]

[quote name='thebigyin' timestamp='1480859035' post='3187579']
A lot of times Paul i would sit and try learn the lines along with the songs. But on a few occasions i have gone down to a Band rehearsal not knowing there set and blagged it by writing down the chords and just root noting and the occasional fill or if it's been Rock and roll or Blues just a basic walking line
I have been out of the scene for quite some time through work but I have reduced my hours now and picked up the Bass again but unfortunately no Band at the moment so i have started trying to educate myself better by learning some theory ect
[/quote]

Aaaah right. I guess there's different categories of theory. For example, what you're doing is effectively composition, which is one area of theory. And things like knowing how to play scales or arpeggios on the bass, is really a "technique" thing, rather than "theory" (you could say its putting the theory into practice). Knowing [i]when[/i], not just [i]how[/i] to play them would again be a composition thing. For example most of my playing is from reading music, so I don't ever get to choose the notes I play, but I'd come across things like scale runs and arpeggios again and again. Obviously practising/knowing scales and arpeggios in a more general sense, means that applying them when it appears in the written music bassline is much easier (and it makes sight reading easier).

There's definitely an area of theory, "how to come up with a good bassline" which is an essential skill for most bass players, but there's other theory too, which either indirectly applies or is basically irrelevant (but still interesting).

[Coilte]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1480857822' post='3187572']
scales on bass are quiet easy really because unlike a guitar all strings go up in 5 fret intervals, so once you're got a scale shape it's movable everywhere, start with major and minor scales it does help to understand why you're playing certain notes, although it's not essential, quiet often I'll play a bass run that doesn't follow those scales sounds alright though, I was doing a bass run for years before I found out it was the pentatonic minor scale
[/quote]

"Knowing" your scales involves a lot more than being able to play them from root to root all over the neck at a gazillion BPM's. While this is no bad thing, it is only half the picture.

Learning scales ...i.e. [u]really [/u]learning them...involves knowing how chords are made from scales, and knowing how to harmonise a scale..i.e. playing all the diatonic chords of that scale. Knowing which chords are major, minor, etc and just as important...WHY they are major or minor etc.