Theory

[paul_c2]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1480860149' post='3187593']
"Knowing" your scales involves a lot more than being able to play them from root to root all over the neck at a gazillion BPM's. While this is no bad thing, it is only half the picture.

Learning scales ...i.e. [u]really [/u]learning them...involves knowing how chords are made from scales, and knowing how to harmonise a scale..i.e. playing all the diatonic chords of that scale. Knowing which chords are major, minor, etc and just as important...WHY they are major or minor etc.
[/quote]

I would label what you have described not so much as "knowing your scales", but "understanding diatonic harmony". Its still just as valid an area, though.

[Coilte]

[quote name='paul_c2' timestamp='1480860321' post='3187598']
I would label what you have described not so much as "knowing your scales", but "understanding diatonic harmony". Its still just as valid an area, though.
[/quote]

Fair enough. My point was that it's not enough to just play scales up and down the neck. If you do, your lines will sound like...well...scales.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1480860708' post='3187600']
Fair enough. My point was that it's not enough to just play scales up and down the neck. If you do, your lines will sound like...well...scales.
[/quote]

Brian May guitar solos!

[paul_c2]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1480866983' post='3187654']
Brian May guitar solos!
[/quote]

.....or John Williams basslines:

[sharedmedia=core:attachments:229816]

[timmo]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1480850079' post='3187487']
Well I've never met anyone that said "I've been spending a few hours a week looking at theory and its made me a worse player! ", go for it.
[/quote] I think the only people who say that theory will make them a worse player, is people who have never studied any, and claim it will stifle their creativity.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1480868457' post='3187668']
I think the only people who say that theory will make them a worse player, is people who have never studied any, and claim it will stifle their creativity.
[/quote]

Yes I have heard it said that "it would" but never that "it has", funny that eh?

[Phil Starr]

[size=4][color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif]"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is [/font][/color][color=#6A6A6A][font=arial, sans-serif][b]magic[/b][/font][/color][color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif] to those who [/font][/color][color=#6A6A6A][font=arial, sans-serif][b]don't understand[/b][/font][/color][color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif] it" Arthur C Clarke[/font][/color]


[color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif]Our old keyboard player, classically trained, could listen to any song pretty much that we were learning just once and could then play it both hands, so effectively bassline, melody and chords all learned in real time. That seemed magic to me, and if I'm honest still does. I kind of know what she was doing, most pop songs use four chords and the melody will come from the scale tones etc but I can't do that. She has music theory and I don't.[/font][/color]

[color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif]Without music theory we are like a story teller who cannot read. Reading means we can talk to each other across space and time, we can talk to everyone who has ever written anything in a language we understand. Writing means we can swap ideas with other people and share ideas. Why would anyone think that exposure to the whole of English Literature would stifle their creativity?[/font][/color]

[color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif]I still painfully learn every song by rote. I don't reject theory I hunger for it, like the OP I wish I knew where to start. Personally I'm ashamed of not being able to read music. I know even a little more knowledge would unlock the musical place I'm confined to. I feel as those poor kids who struggle to learn to read must feel daily every time I get stuck with anything unusual in a new song.[/font][/color][/size]

Edited December 4, 2016 by Phil Starr

[Dad3353]

...

I still painfully learn every song by rote. I don't reject theory I hunger for it, like the OP I wish I knew where to start...

I'd just like to suggest that reading music and learning music theory are two different, complementary, skills. One may study one, or the other (or both, of course...), but it's not essential to combine them. In the same way, having even a deep knowledge of theory does not mean one can play an instrument at all..! The dog's whatsits would be to assimilate all, but that's not always possible. Anything is better than nothing, though, in any of these fields. Edited November 11, 2018 by Dad3353

[paul_c2]

I've always wondered how people who can't read/write music communicate ideas amongst each other? It must be a horribly restricting and inefficient process to have to play something, then listen to it and basically memorise it (and fraught with inaccuracy). Or somehow describe using numbers, or tabs, or something?

[SubsonicSimpleton]

The best way to approach theory IMHO is using a holistic approach that encompasses academic, practical and aural at the same time.

For example, you are learning about major chords, so the academic understanding is how the chord is constructed and spelt correctly in each key,
the practical application is learning where you can find the notes that make up that chord on the fretboard(or fingerboard on DB),
the aural application is learning the sound of that major chord - singing the arpeggio accurately is a good place to start.

You can choose to address these three aspects with any degree of thoroughness, the better your grasp of the basics, the easier it is to get your head, ears and fingers round more advanced concepts.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='paul_c2' timestamp='1480879137' post='3187782']
I've always wondered how people who can't read/write music communicate ideas amongst each other? It must be a horribly restricting and inefficient process to have to play something, then listen to it and basically memorise it (and fraught with inaccuracy). Or somehow describe using numbers, or tabs, or something?
[/quote]

It's not complicated, honestly.

If you work in circles where reading is the the norm, I can completely understand why you might think any other approach is a terrible restriction.

But it's important to be aware that there are circles where it's not the norm, usually where exactly replicating an existing part isn't the primary goal.

That's not to mention folk and roots music, which has survived for years on a mouth-to-ear basis.

[timmo]

I bought a course from Kai Eckhardt about intervals. I have a small understanding of intervals, but i am working through it, and it has bought a real understanding of the use and how they sound. It is a video course, and really easy to follow.
https://truefire.com/bass-guitar-lessons/atomic-bass/c30
I also bought Ariane Cap`s Pentatonic Playground.

[josie]

This came up in an interesting way at Aynsley Lister's guitar weekend a couple of months ago. He grew up in a family of musicians and can do pretty much anything by ear and instinct. His bass player, Steve Amadeo, who four of us were working with, is very strong on understanding the structure of scales and chords. As is my excellent teacher. Given the root notes for a song, how do you know without a lot of trial and error - which you might not have time for - which notes will sound good as fills and runs between them?

A slightly different example: "my band" had a go at "Sunshine of Your Love" on Friday. I had it nailed, because I knew the bassline was a pentatonic minor scale. The lead guitarist, who is a much more natural and skillful musician than I, has no idea what one of them is, and it turns out had been playing it wrongly for years.

The first thing I do now when I start to learn a new song is to figure out what key it's in and play that scale, in different places and fingerings on the fretboard, until it's completely familiar. Then playing the basic bassline, and any degree of ornamentation on it, comes easily.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='josie' timestamp='1480882275' post='3187809']
A slightly different example: "my band" had a go at "Sunshine of Your Love" on Friday. I had it nailed, because I knew the bassline was a pentatonic minor scale. The lead guitarist, who is a much more natural and skillful musician than I, has no idea what one of them is, and it turns out had been playing it wrongly for years.
[/quote]

To be fair, Sunshine isn't exactly a tricky tune. You don't have to know it's a pentatonic minor scale to nail it in a few seconds.

If the guitarist missed that he was playing it wrong, I suspect he isn't as natural or skilful as you give him credit for...

[The Jaywalker]

.

Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[josie]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1480882518' post='3187812']
To be fair, Sunshine isn't exactly a tricky tune. You don't have to know it's a pentatonic minor scale to nail it in a few seconds.

If the guitarist missed that he was playing it wrong, I suspect he isn't as natural or skilful as you give him credit for...
[/quote]

It was specifically the little chromatic A - G# - G run that threw him - three notes with two semi-tone intervals. Obviously not a blues man (sadly).

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='josie' timestamp='1480884028' post='3187841']
It was specifically the little chromatic A - G# - G run that threw him - three notes with two semi-tone intervals. Obviously not a blues man (sadly).
[/quote]

Yeah, but it's such a characteristic of the riff, how did he miss it?

[Bilbo]

It's about how rounded a musician you want to be. The more you understand, the bigger your pallette.

[Phil Starr]

I'd just like to suggest that reading music and learning music theory are two different, complementary, skills. One may study one, or the other (or both, of course...), but it's not essential to combine them. In the same way, having even a deep knowledge of theory does not mean one can play an instrument at all..! The dog's whatsits would be to assimilate all, but that's not always possible. Anything is better than nothing, though, in any of these fields.

I was aware of that as I was writing. Then I thought that actually reading is the ultimate skill that makes it possible to unlock a lot of 'theory'. I don't think you can really separate a good grasp of theory from reading I gather little bits of theory when I can, it all comes in useful but I still feel like a blind man.

For example I've only recently started looking at the theory behind rhythm. As a bass player the little dotted squiggles, the timing of the notes and the bar lines should have been what I looked at, not being so dazzled by the notes alone. I've been looking at the letters not the words. How the hell do I get better without a proper grasp of what note length really is, and how do I do that efficiently without being able to read and write?

As a drummer you must be smiling now. Edited November 11, 2018 by Dad3353

[Phil Starr]

Morning Folks
What's your feelings on Theory??? Are you a big believer in learning your scales and modes, chord tones, arpeggios ect.
I must admit my lack of knowledge after many years of playing is beginning to get to me now, in the past i have played in quite a few Bands and blagged my way through ect.
I used to find the whole thought of learning Theory a chore but just recently i have started to learn a bit more about chord tones, inversions, scales and modes all simple at present even grasping simple intervals mainly 3rd's and 6th's, 5th and octaves as they seem to make the most sense at present....wish I had started learning theory awhile back now....any help or advice would be greatly appreciated Thanks and Cheers Bob

I share your position at the bottom of a big scary mountain that needs climbing, this is a thread I'm going to follow.

Just a little personal insight which is going to make the mountain twice as high, it isn't all about notes, have a look at this and see what you think. I'll never look down my nose at Britney and Pitbull again https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtZ74JdxCt0 Edited November 11, 2018 by Dad3353

[PaulWarning]

chromatic runs always make me smile, the Clash's London Calling has a 4 note chromatic run in it, how does that work? no doubt someone will enlighten me, but till then I'll stick to my maxim, If it sounds good it is good

[Dad3353]

Phil Starr said:

...As a drummer you must be smiling now.

Welcome to my world..!

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Dad3353

[thebigyin]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1480877418' post='3187767']
[size=4][color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif]"Any technology, no matter how primitive, is [/font][/color][color=#6A6A6A][font=arial, sans-serif][b]magic[/b][/font][/color][color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif] to those who [/font][/color][color=#6A6A6A][font=arial, sans-serif][b]don't understand[/b][/font][/color][color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif] it" Arthur C Clarke[/font][/color]


[color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif]Our old keyboard player, classically trained, could listen to any song pretty much that we were learning just once and could then play it both hands, so effectively bassline, melody and chords all learned in real time. That seemed magic to me, and if I'm honest still does. I kind of know what she was doing, most pop songs use four chords and the melody will come from the scale tones etc but I can't do that. She has music theory and I don't.[/font][/color]

[color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif]Without music theory we are like a story teller who cannot read. Reading means we can talk to each other across space and time, we can talk to everyone who has ever written anything in a language we understand. Writing means we can swap ideas with other people and share ideas. Why would anyone think that exposure to the whole of English Literature would stifle their creativity?[/font][/color]

[color=#545454][font=arial, sans-serif]I still painfully learn every song by rote. I don't reject theory I hunger for it, like the OP I wish I knew where to start. Personally I'm ashamed of not being able to read music. I know even a little more knowledge would unlock the musical place I'm confined to. I feel as those poor kids who struggle to learn to read must feel daily every time I get stuck with anything unusual in a new song.[/font][/color][/size]
[/quote]
Nicely put Phil as i've got older i find it harder to work stuff out i'm not sure if it's just bone idleness or what but my enthusiasm wavers
Been in and out of Bands since the late 70's should be loads better so i know were your coming from....i often doubt my ability which doesn't help but plod on regardless. I am trying to better myself and take my playing to a better level even at the grand old age of 55.....but the saying your never to old to Rock n Roll.....don't believe it....it's definitely a young persons game lol.

[thebigyin]

Thanks for all your replies folks lots of different comments and lots to ponder cheers Bob

[timmo]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1480930571' post='3188042']


Welcome to my world..!
[/quote] I am a bit dense here, but can you explain why, as a drummer, you must be smiling? Do you need to know a bit of theory to be a drummer or am I missing something?