Support bands and bad sound.

[Lozz196]

It`s not always bad news though. One of the best I`ve done is The Rebellion Festival - each time we`ve played there the sound-men couldn`t have been better, really switched on. This year the drums were a bit too high in my monitor - after the first song I pointed to the drummer whilst looking at the sound-man, then pointed to my monitor, then pointed downwards. He sorted it immediately, with a thumbs-up to indicate he`d understood and done what I asked. Totally professional. The first time we were there I asked the sound-man if it was ok to DI from my pre-amp pedal rather than just from the amp and his reply was, we`re here to make you sound good, whatever way you want to do it we`ll work with you. And this was virtually the opening slot on a Thursday lunchtime so not like we`re anyone that carries any clout.

[T-Bay]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1481844789' post='3195728']
I was going to start a topic of this the other day. I went to see placebo on Monday night, and they had support from a group called minor victories. The bass player was on the side of the stage in front of me, and obviously as it was the support there weren't too many people in front. So the drumming starts and the bass drum goes right through you as do the other drums. The bass player is standing there with a rather nice Jaguar bass, so i thought 'Nice bass, I wonder what that sounds like'. Then he started playing, and turns out, I was none the wiser. Pretty well couldn't hear him.
[/quote]
which venue? I saw them at Manchester on Monday the 6th and was very impressed with the sound of the bass coming through. I did think the drums bordered on being 'boomy' at times but nothing major and certainly didn't drown out the bass where I was. I was in a seat direct in line with the stage so would be interested to hear if the sound was significantly different to the standing area. They seemed pretty spot on to me, Placebo were also well set up (but you would expect that). I was very impressed with Minor Victories and will make a point of seeing more of them.

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1481975755' post='3196689']which venue? [/quote]

Newport. The bass drum was overwhelming and I couldn't hear the bass at all, it was just a wall of bass. Mind you, as I said I was within jumping distance of the stage so maybe that is why, but Placebo sounded fine and their bass was a lot clearer (so much so my GAS for an explorer tipped over and I have one coming next week!)

I liked Minor Victories, but my wife hated them and went and sat down. Mind you she is not a fan of that sort of thing.

[T-Bay]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1481979107' post='3196718']


Newport. The bass drum was overwhelming and I couldn't hear the bass at all, it was just a wall of bass. Mind you, as I said I was within jumping distance of the stage so maybe that is why, but Placebo sounded fine and their bass was a lot clearer (so much so my GAS for an explorer tipped over and I have one coming next week!)

I liked Minor Victories, but my wife hated them and went and sat down. Mind you she is not a fan of that sort of thing.
[/quote]
Different strokes and all that, if the sound was bad that wouldn't help. I was very impressed, my only complaint was that they were on long enough!

[mike257]

I'm a freelance sound engineer, and occasionally work at Parr Hall, although I wasn't involved with that show. I can tell you with no hesitation that no member of the technical crew there would intentionally mix a support band to sound "worse" than a headliner.

I've never, in the many tech riders I've received, seen any stipulation about providing a lesser quality mix for a support band, and I don't know any engineer who would willingly provide a "bad" mix at any gig.

On many professional tours at club gig/academy level, the headliner will be mixed by their own touring engineer, who will usually have a show file for the digital desk, and will often be touring with some or all of their own mics and have almost certainly had production rehearsals ahead of the tour. The result of this is that they've got a much more consistent sound from venue to venue, tweaking to suit the room and the system.

Support acts on these tours, particularly those lower on the bill, will often be mixed by the venue crew with the in house mics etc, where they will be starting from scratch at every show with a limited time for soundcheck. Instantly, you've got a massive difference in the standard of the end result you will achieve, even with a great crew.

[jacko]

went to see the Quo last night in the Glasgow hydro. Support was REO Speedwagon but they might just as well have been a bunch of buskers dragged in from the street. The sound for the support ranged from very boomy to tinny ringing with very little room for any music. I was watching the bass player the whole show and even though his fingers were moving on the fretboard I couldn't tell if he was even playing. Drums and keys were most prominent with a bit of guitar. Bassist might as well not have been on the stage. The Quo's sound was superb.

[PaulWarning]

I attended Strummercamp and the sound all weekend wasn't very good, no bass guitar loads of bass drum, then Ruts DC came on marvellous sound, I actually FB'd Segs Jennings the Ruts bass player about it, his reply was that they'd got their own sound man

[LewisK1975]

Not a support band really as it was a co-headline - but I went to Limp Bizkit and Korn on Sunday in Cardiff Motorpoint. Seen LB a few times before and they've always been brilliant.

LB were on first and their sound was absolutely shocking, Kick drum was huge and boomy, Barely audible guitar, no bass at all and the vocals were OK(ish). I also thought their setlist was very hit and miss, they had 70mins, and with that they ought to have been able to treat us to a string of belters, but instead we were treated to a sprinkling of the good stuff along with long interludes between songs and random DJ sections.

Gutted ain't the word. Didn't even stay for Korn (wasn't planning to anyway but I was in a good mood before, so thought 'you never know').

[cheddatom]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1482313653' post='3199379']
I attended Strummercamp and the sound all weekend wasn't very good, no bass guitar loads of bass drum, then Ruts DC came on marvellous sound, I actually FB'd Segs Jennings the Ruts bass player about it, his reply was that they'd got their own sound man
[/quote]

yep, simple fact is that there are a lot of bad sound men who keep getting work

***THIS IS NOT A GENERALISATION, THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD SOUNDENGINEERS***

(just trying to avoid the telling off I got last time I said this)

[gafbass02]

[quote name='Woodinblack' timestamp='1481844789' post='3195728']
I was going to start a topic of this the other day. I went to see placebo on Monday night, and they had support from a group called minor victories. The bass player was on the side of the stage in front of me, and obviously as it was the support there weren't too many people in front. So the drumming starts and the bass drum goes right through you as do the other drums. The bass player is standing there with a rather nice Jaguar bass, so i thought 'Nice bass, I wonder what that sounds like'. Then he started playing, and turns out, I was none the wiser. Pretty well couldn't hear him.
[/quote]

I was going to post this exact same thing!!! I was at the Birmingham gig. The kick drum nearly snapped me in half!! Minor victories reminded me a lot of Catherine wheel.

Edited December 22, 2016 by gafbass02

[LukeFRC]

goes the other way too - we played some festival thing once, about 10 venues around the city with 2-4 acts each, if you had a wristband you could just walk into any of them. It was great.
We were playing the "main venue", backline all provided and chatting to the sound guy found he was in charge of tech for the whole festival - but was running the desk for our venue as "I built these speakers myself" - nice guy.
Us and the other 2 acts down the bill played, and sounded great, good gig.
Then the "headliners" turned up, who at the time were going to be the "next big thing" ... and they brought their own sound guy....
it was painful sounding. We stayed and watched and cheered out of politeness (we always did that with bands we supported and that supported us) but it wasn't much fun.

[Sean]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1481493570' post='3192735']


My local venue used to be The Torrington in Finchley. Fairly decent PA there and most bands used the house sound guy.

Piss him off or treat him badly and he'd make you sound absolute sh*t.

I saw a guitarist give him stick in a very uncompromising and public way once because he was struggling with his monitor volume.

Sound guy sorted him in the monitors, then pulled him out of the front of house mix completely. . .
[/quote]

Sound guy in this circumstance should be sacked. Yes, the guitarist was a dick but it's the audience that gets punished and the venue loses out overall.

[blue]

Bad sound engineers is a separate issue

I still contend that early in the day support acts at major festivals playing main stages deliberately get poor sound regardless of circumstances as compared to what the headliners get.

Blue

[Lozz196]

Yep, I can`t remember which band it was, Motley Crue or Guns N Roses, but in their book they said when they were on a tour in their early stages they supported a well known band and they were amazed as they got better monitoring, better stage lights than they were expecting.

[SteveK]

It is very easy, when in a support slot, to blame poor sound on sabotage, whether by a "couldn't give a toss" FOH engineer, or reduced PA spec.
But, generally speaking, "bad sound" is the result of inexperience from the support band. A good band will arrange a song for live: Cutting back instruments (eg. keys or guitars) to allow vocals to be heard, use of dynamics etc, and actually being able to play to a reasonable standard.
I was going to write a much longer post, including my experience as "Guests" with Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow on their German shows this year ... maybe later!

[blue]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1482781857' post='3202736']
It is very easy, when in a support slot, to blame poor sound on sabotage, whether by a "couldn't give a toss" FOH engineer, or reduced PA spec.
But, generally speaking, "bad sound" is the result of inexperience from the support band. A good band will arrange a song for live: Cutting back instruments (eg. keys or guitars) to allow vocals to be heard, use of dynamics etc, and actually being able to play to a reasonable standard.
I was going to write a much longer post, including my experience as "Guests" with Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow on their German shows this year ... maybe later!
[/quote]

Musicianship and talent as a band has nothing to do with deliberate poor sound.

You could take your favorite band, put them on the big main stage and if the sound management is bad they will sound awful.IMO

Not budging on this one.

Blue

[Lozz196]

Agree, Blue. Some of this goes back to the old "with the bass always take the signal pre rather than post" argument imo. If this was done to us it would decimate the sound of our band. No matter how well we were to play we would sound nothing like our recordings, and in the guitar solos the sound would be so empty. Just one example of one small decision that can be taken that can mess up a whole bands sound, irrespective of how well they play.

[ubit]

My worst memory, is of a wedding we were booked to play at years ago. Weddings are always hard gigs as the window for setting up can be small , due to venue constraints. We turned up and the whole wedding party were already sitting waiting. The other band, somehow had got in earlier and had used up the complete stage, even though they were well aware we were playing. We had to jam ourselves in, PA included, to this tiny area at the front of the stage. We had no sound check and the evening went exactly as predicted We tried our best, but the sound wasn't right. We knew this by the faces on the revellers. What annoyed me more , was the reluctance of our guitarist in going out front, to hear what was wrong. I am also the lead vocalist and am tied to a mic stand. It was a horrible night and I couldn't wait for it to end.
Years later, the groom was talking to me and asked do we practise? As we obviously hadn't that night. I was annoyed at this, because this was the guy that booked us on the strength of our local performances, so he should have known that we had had a problem that night.
A bad sound can ruin a bands performance and selfish headliners, are the worst !

[Lozz196]

I played a gig at the weekend and the sound wasn`t particularly good - a lot to do with the venue acoustics. The band on before us went on and the bassist had a great sound until the sound-guy went on stage and changed the eq on the bass amp (provided rig). Suddenly they went to mush as well. Sometimes it`s how the sound-person thinks an instrument should sound that messes up a bands sound, not deliberately doing it to make the band sound bad. The band spend ages rehearsing and getting the sounds of the instruments as they want them and then someone on the desk - who has never heard them so has no point of reference - changes the sound to a more generic sound.

[PaulWarning]

played a gig in the basement at Rock City at the weekend and the sound was suburb for all 5 bands, in fact our fans that were there said it was the best they've ever heard us, restored my faith in sound men it did

[Lozz196]

That`s nice to know Paul, we`re there later on this year, in April I think.

[cheddatom]

I've played there too, great sound crew, it should be ace! (even better upstairs! )

[Wolverinebass]

[quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1484037343' post='3212043']
I played a gig at the weekend and the sound wasn`t particularly good - a lot to do with the venue acoustics. The band on before us went on and the bassist had a great sound until the sound-guy went on stage and changed the eq on the bass amp (provided rig). Suddenly they went to mush as well. Sometimes it`s how the sound-person thinks an instrument should sound that messes up a bands sound, not deliberately doing it to make the band sound bad. The band spend ages rehearsing and getting the sounds of the instruments as they want them and then someone on the desk - who has never heard them so has no point of reference - changes the sound to a more generic sound.
[/quote]

This is why I generally hate sound engineers. Had someone tried to do that to me I'd imagine that they'd see their own blood pretty quick. Fair enough if you're too loud, but the second someone starts messing with frequencies for you it's game over.

I've had this sort of crap happen to me on several occasions and on one of the more "heated" exchanges I had to be restrained by my bandmates. All because this idiot decided to do frequency pans on me for the whole set.

Ever wanted to know how amazing your bass will sound when you cut off everything above 400hz? No, you don't. Nobody does. But that's what these clowns do. Reduce you to a dull throb in the background regardless how much you've explained that the bass is occupying a different role to the normal "play a note with the kick drum." Divs.

[Lozz196]

I think from now on, following Saturdays hiccup, I`m going to play the sound-person at whatever gig we`re doing one of our songs on my mobe, so they can hear how the bass is meant to be, as I do get a lot of comments about "there`s a lot of treble on your bass, but I can sort that on the desk". At which point my best Paddington Stare is usually unleashed

[ubit]

It makes you mad, thinking , you have spent lots of time and money, trying to perfect your sound. Then some random guy decides he has a better idea, as to how you should sound. It's just very difficult when you are playing a one off gig with strangers responsible for the sound.