BigRedX Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 You've probably learnt more about the business side of the music business through this, than anything you've been taught on your University course. What exactly does the person you've been collaborating with want from you going forward? And what do you want? AFAICS he just wants to use another bass player for live work, or is he finished with your collaboration altogether? If it was me, I'd step back, calm down and try and end this on good terms between the two of you if possible. You never know when you might want or need to work with the people involved again. Are you a member of the MU and the PRS? If not you should definitely consider joining both. The MU has free legal advice for situations like this. Also if you have had any writing input to the songs you should get this registered right now. Songwriting is where the serious money is, not playing an instrument. If the other person is done with your input altogether, I would suggest that you let him walk away with what the two of you have done in exchange for 50% [b]GROSS[/b] of all royalties that these songs may attract in the future. That's a good fair and even split at this stage and get the agreement in writing. The get the songs registered with the PRS with that split recorded ASAP. And good luck for the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedmanzie Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 OP - What you should also do imo is consider if there's anything you could do (could have done) to be more professional or reliable or a team player. I don't work with band members but I do work with teams for my job, and it's often the case that people can't see their own failings (and I'm sure that's the case for me too btw!). Big things for me when working in a team are: - reliable communication: responding promptly to emails & calls - doing what you say: not leaving something half done, or having to be repeatedly asked 'have you done that thing yet that you said would be ready today?' - being positive and friendly and responding well to well intentioned criticism (eg 'thanks for pointing that out' not 'why are you always having a go at me?') - don't over promise and keep people informed: eg. be realistic about deadlines, and if something is slipping let people know asap and ask for help Not saying you're failing on any of these but it's worth taking an impartial look. Sometimes if people are getting frustrated with you it's because of something you're not doing as expected, but then of course other times it's just because they are an idiot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martthebass Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 (edited) I've lost more friends through the years through working in bands than in any other walk of life. For some reason, musical 'rejection' can hurt more than most criticisms and grudges can last a long long time. In recent years, I've tried to be more pragmatic, take a moral high-ground and not rant (or only rant under my breath, to myself, once I've left the room)about it. I've found this usually works better and opportunities with guys you would have punched out can open up again on a professional level. This doesn't mean allowing yourself to be treat like a dishrag, so I'd leave, on as good a terms as possible and chalk it up to experience. If you can leave with some 'compensation' for your efforts all the better, if not, don't let it eat away at you, move on..... Edited December 15, 2016 by martthebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Steve Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 [quote name='martthebass' timestamp='1481806925' post='3195293'] I've lost more friends through the years through working in bands than in any other walk of life. For some reason, musical 'rejection' can hurt more than most criticisms and grudges can last a long long time. In recent years, I've tried to be more pragmatic, take a moral high-ground and not rant (or only rant under my breath, to myself, once I've left the room)about it. I've found this usually works better and opportunities with guys you would have punched out can open up again on a professional level. This doesn't mean allowing yourself to be treat like a dishrag, so I'd leave, on as good a terms as possible and chalk it up to experience. If you can leave with some 'compensation' for your efforts all the better, if not, don't let it eat away at you, move on..... [/quote] Yes, it is oddly like splitting up with a girlfriend. It's very personal, being told that you're not wanted, or telling somebody that you don't want them to be in your band any more. In relationships and bands, it's usually better to get it over and done with as quickly as possible...but you always put it off for far too long, and that never turns out well for either side. In this particular case it does seem like being told you're dumped but being expected to carry on as just good friends Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AutomaticWriting Posted December 15, 2016 Author Share Posted December 15, 2016 Hey guys hopefully I can reply to all of these in a concise manner haha. So I'll answer a few things, I really appreciate everyones input, it's definitely made me look from a few different perspectives. Okay so I should point out we are all at university together and will be for the next 3 years. I don't think I've done anything unprofessional, I was available 24/7 for the singer, the only deadline I missed was one that wasn't even important and I missed it due to doing other things for the singer and having to do my university work because it was exam week. But other than that I've pretty much done everything for them. The setup was I'd be handed some chords played roughly on keyboard and a rough vocal part. Then I would chop this up, re arrange the song how I saw best, say what worked, what didn't, then after this I would produce the entire song and wait for a vocal part. After which it would go to rehearsal where we would work out a live arrangement for the song, again normally left to me. I'm mainly a bit gutted because I haven't played bass in a band before so I was very excited about finally getting a chance and whilst I'm not the greatest bassist to walk the earth I don't think I'm bad either. The songs were pretty straight forward pop numbers anyway. I think I will just move on, there's been a few strange decisions with this singer recently not just involving me. So I think it's probably best if I cut my losses and move on to the next project, I have a few other artists on the radar that would be interested in working with me so hopefully there's some light at the end of the tunnel I hope this thread actually helps some other people who will go through the same issue! I don't want it to just be me complaining... Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkandrew Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 [quote name='anzoid' timestamp='1481739891' post='3194769'] Yeah, think that's fair enough, unless they want to come to some (paid?) arrangement. They're the ones that did the bridge burning... [/quote] Regardless of who owns the copyright of the songs, if you own the copyright of the recordings then these belong to you. When I was younger, I had turned my parents' attic into a recording studio and would regularly be asked to record demos by local bands; generally I would agree to do this on "at cost" but insist that the recording belonged to me afterward, hoping that one day one of the bands would become huge and I'd be able to sell their early recordings (but unfortunately none of them did!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrevorR Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 As others have said, try to part on good terms (and with a proportion of ownership of the recordings if possible). However, if the recordings do go down well, the next time he turns up asking for you to produce a new track for him (and I'll bet he does) present him with your rate card, your standard producer's Ts and Cs, a contract and an invoice for partial up front payment. After all, you're no longer considered a band member, you're a contractor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12stringbassist Posted December 15, 2016 Share Posted December 15, 2016 (edited) Don't work with anyone who doesn't respect your work. Tell them that you need to devote more time to your own work and that something had to give and it was them. For the future, your time will be charged (mates rates) by the hour. Edited December 16, 2016 by 12stringbassist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 If you've been sacked as the bass player I wouldn't go offering your services as a producer for the bands music. Make a clean break of it. If they do come begging you to produce songs in the future, make sure it's on a professional basis and you charge for your services. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackerJackLee Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 [quote name='AutomaticWriting' timestamp='1481815868' post='3195406'] Hey guys hopefully I can reply to all of these in a concise manner haha. So I'll answer a few things, I really appreciate everyones input, it's definitely made me look from a few different perspectives. Okay so I should point out we are all at university together and will be for the next 3 years. I don't think I've done anything unprofessional, I was available 24/7 for the singer, the only deadline I missed was one that wasn't even important and I missed it due to doing other things for the singer and having to do my university work because it was exam week. But other than that I've pretty much done everything for them. The setup was I'd be handed some chords played roughly on keyboard and a rough vocal part. Then I would chop this up, re arrange the song how I saw best, say what worked, what didn't, then after this I would produce the entire song and wait for a vocal part. After which it would go to rehearsal where we would work out a live arrangement for the song, again normally left to me. I'm mainly a bit gutted because I haven't played bass in a band before so I was very excited about finally getting a chance and whilst I'm not the greatest bassist to walk the earth I don't think I'm bad either. The songs were pretty straight forward pop numbers anyway. I think I will just move on, there's been a few strange decisions with this singer recently not just involving me. So I think it's probably best if I cut my losses and move on to the next project, I have a few other artists on the radar that would be interested in working with me so hopefully there's some light at the end of the tunnel I hope this thread actually helps some other people who will go through the same issue! I don't want it to just be me complaining... Cheers [/quote] Three things I guess... 1- the guy sounds like a bit of an idiot, unless he's got Dylan like genius or something you don't need him. If he does have Dylan like genius then that would come across on the demos, and bluntly he doesn't need you. (You can substitute dylan for whichever musical hero you have btw) 2- He's a young singer songwriter, he meets a guy at uni who does production and plays a bit of stuff on it and he does a good job. So much so that he lands one song at some big venue. Now I don't really know what kinda strange gig is only one song, but in that situation from his POV he's seeing it as a big chance to impress. If you were him andhad to choose between the producer who had never played a gig as a bass player or someone who had played lots of gigs... it's not an utterly stupid idea he's had from his POV. Say you carried on played bass with him, it's clear he doesn't really view you as an equal in the project so you work out, what, you get a split of the profits? So in the future say this guy becomes massive, he's going to have a manager there asking him why they've got this good-but-not-exceptional bass player who has got half a mind on production projects is in the band as you cost more than getting in a contracted pro. ... 3. You must be good at the production side, and presumably young and at the start of your career. Well done you've just avoided having your time at uni tied to one person's ego. Go find more music to make and play. Find places where you're seen as an equal. Start things yourself. and think next time the singer songwriter rings wanting production, as well as needing to talk about your pay structure you'll have to talk about your schedule and when you can fit him in. Oh and don't neglect the studies. As an aside, when I was at uni we formed a band, in one year we went from forming to playing fairly big venues and getting lots of good press. It was amazing how many other bands were striving to 'make it', and how this was poluting their decision making, behaviour and music. We took what we were doing seriously but we were very much doing things cos we thought they were fun/interesting - and it was amazing how much that stood out in a sea of derivative blandness. Beware people who's egos are set on "making it" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Dare Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 If it's his gig, he can decide who he plays with. I sense you're feeling "I've put a lot of effort into this and I deserve better". It may be true that you have, but life ain't fair or meritocratic, I'm afraid (however much people may try to persuade us that it is). As for being "unprofessional", don't even go there. That way lies blaming yourself. If the guy's a bit of a dick, that's not your problem or fault. If you're at uni' with him, just cross him off your Christmas card list. Plenty more fish on the sea. Lots of people at uni' start bands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropzone Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 I would consider whether you believe this guy is going to make it. If you really believe he is then hang around (as much for the experience as anything else) as opportunities may present themselves that you may not have expected to happen and you have to be in it to win it, but be frugal with any goodwill and do not be afraid to ask the direct question "What's in it for me?". Altenatively graciously walk away and see if he comes back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damonjames Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Welcome to the music business. It's a shame to hear your story, and feel for you, but odds on this won't be your last sacking or disappointing moment in your career. I got "replaced" by the singer/guitarist old friend who had just moved back into town (or maybe he was just being polite) but after a year commitment being dropped by a text message was a bit harsh, but a sign of the times. It gets easier as time goes by, you will move on and let it go. Just make sure you defriend them on Facebook, I didn't and got to see the pics of them playing the Whisky in LA!!!! Such is life!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringNavigator Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 On 14/12/2016 at 11:41, Rocker said: Don't neglect your studies. Music is a business as well as a hobby... don't neglect your studies. And keep on playing.... Best advice, eh... ? I hope you did become focused more on what counts! They probably had a connection that you would never want to duplicate. Did you ever discover where they wound up...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringNavigator Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 On 14/12/2016 at 11:59, chris_b said: A band leader told me once, "You can always find someone better. The trick is knowing when to stop looking." Amen, brother! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringNavigator Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 (edited) Thanks to the OP for sharing the tale. I hope that you're now happy and successful! This is a great lesson in "Just do what you do!" And do it superbly! Being helpful is never appreciated. In fact, it is resented and you soon become a carpet. Your helpfulness exposes people's ineptitude, and they resent it. Focusing on your responsibility is admired. Why is it like that? Why, that's just the way it is... "Oh, John is a great guy, you can depend on him to hold down the bass. He's the strong, silent type. But that Alan... Why, he's always sticking his nose into something..." I used to be a carpet. Now, I live like I'm gonna die tomorrow. And people like me better. Beta's are friends. Alpha's are lovers. Who said you can't learn from BassChat? Edited October 13, 2018 by StringNavigator removed inadvertent sexist comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sibob Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 (edited) Welcome to the music business (noticed other people said it after I had typed haha, so true). Fundamentally, you chose to ‘work’ for this artist, the artist has now chosen to work with another player. Presumably they’ve taken into consideration what else they’ll be losing and still gone with it. Don’t deliver any further assets, arrangements, tracks etc unless they want to pay you for them, learn from it and move on. Probably earn more as the producer than the bass player anyway Si Edited October 11, 2018 by Sibob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcnach Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 On 11/10/2018 at 18:05, StringNavigator said: Thanks to the OP for sharing the tale. I hope that you're now happy and successful! This is a great lesson in "Just do what you do!" And do it superbly! Being helpful is never appreciated. In fact, it is resented and you soon become a carpet. Your helpfulness exposes people's ineptitude, and they resent it. Focusing on your responsibility is admired. Why is it like that? Why, that's just the way it is... "Oh, John is a great guy, you can depend on him to hold down the bass. He's the strong, silent type. But that Alan... Why, he's always sticking his nose into something..." I used to be a carpet. Now, I live like I'm gonna die tomorrow. And people like me better. It's like that with women, too. Beta males are friends. Alpha males are lovers. Who said you can't learn from BassChat? I just wish you had left that beta/alpha BS out... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Blank Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 33 minutes ago, mcnach said: I just wish you had left that beta/alpha BS out... I found it quite quaint, like watching a really bad old 80s film and thanking god you never had hair like the dude with the mullet. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) On 11/10/2018 at 18:05, StringNavigator said: Being helpful is never appreciated. I find myself appreciating the helpfulness of my fellow BCers pretty much daily. I guess you meant "being helpful when no one was asking for help, is never appreciated"? Edited October 12, 2018 by Al Krow 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringNavigator Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 (edited) I stand corrected. Offence removed! Once you pointed it out I realised that it works both ways. I guess I was focused too much on the OP and lost my self-consciousness. I've seen kindness exploited and viewed as a sign of weakness that was taken advantage of. And that is exactly what happened to the OP. But it's only my experience talking, which is of course, a bias. I could never take advantage and have always shown my appreciation for the least consideration. In fact, I find little reason for anyone to be fired from a band. Usually it's pettiness and intrigue. There's plenty of room for forgiveness and only the chronically maladjusted should ever be asked to leave if they cannot remediate their situation or if they are taking advantage of the band. So, who said you can't learn from BassChat? PS. I've never owned a mullet?, but I still watch Battle Star Galactica and Star Trek! Edited October 13, 2018 by StringNavigator 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumnote Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 On 12/10/2018 at 22:54, Frank Blank said: I found it quite quaint, like watching a really bad old 80s film and thanking god you never had hair like the dude with the mullet. I wish I had enough hair for a mullet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Blank Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, bumnote said: I wish I had enough hair for a mullet Amen... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringNavigator Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, bumnote said: I wish I had enough hair for a mullet I've heard it grows well on a head of fertilizer... That's why we had lots as youngsters! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.