The Great Moog Swindle! Or: How I Still Haven't Got My Money Back

[ZilchWoolham]

I've made a couple of status updates concerning this predicament I'm in, but I decided a proper thread was in order. So, some of you might have heard the beginning of this story, but for the sake of reading convenience I'm going to take it, once more, from the top.

Three weeks back I received a reply, via email, to a LTB ad I had posted for a Moog Prodigy. It came from a woman who said she had one she would be willing to part with for the price I had suggested. She didn't live nearby, but she could send the synth with a courier. This was only the morning after I had posted the ad, so I was excited to have found a seller so quickly, and she was very eager to respond to my questions and get the deal going. I absolutely hate waiting for deliveries, and can't stand sales that seem to trudge on, slowly, with no end in sight, so I'm always chuffed to find a seller who's willing to get it over with as quickly as possible. I've a feeling a few others on this forum might sympathise!

I asked her if there was any way I could be assured that the deal transpired according to the agreement, and she told me she could drop the synth off at the courier and snap a photo of the receipt before I made the transfer. If I didn't pay, she could just fetch it back. Since she was so accommodating I thought it would be nice of me to not bother her too much, so I decided to just pay her in advance. Of course, if this were someone else's story, I'm quite sure I'd start hearing the alarm bells right about now.

I am not, however, completely stupid (or so I thought), so I figured a few safety measures were in order before I parted with my £500. I looked her name up on Facebook and found a girl who indeed was a musician; more specifically a seemingly very bright, very non-shady young musician studying to be a doctor. I also asked for pictures and quickly received a couple of snaps of a nice looking Prodigy in a flight case. I did the usual reverse Google search and found they passed the test: no matches. They were, however, strangely low-res, but my then state of chuffedness quickly brushed that detail off as not important.

The first warning signs materialised in front of me as I had transferred the money and realised that she was supposedly already at the courier's, and I still hadn't given her my shipping adress. I quickly sent it to her. She replied that she was just about to ask me for it, as soon as she had made sure that the transfer had been completed. Maybe not entirely comforting, but at this point, I couldn't do much at all but hope for the best.

As it turns out, the best wasn't going to happen. The warning signs that had materialised earlier were now more or less hitting me in the face. I was given a tracking number for the courier which didn't work. This didn't seem so strange, as it could probably take more than a few minutes for the shipment to appear on the website, but I still craved some type of reassurance, so I asked her for a photo of the receipt. She replied that she hadn't been given one. Now that did seem a little strange. I asked her for an estimated delivery date, and got a reply the next day saying that it should be with me that day (Friday the 25th) or the following Monday. Well, it didn't show up that Friday. It didn't show up on Monday either. As you've probably fathomed by now, I still don't have it, and neither, in fact, did she have it.



[b]INTERMISSION[/b]

[ZilchWoolham]

After a week and a half of having barraged her with polite inquiries to no avail I decided to do a bit of investigative work. I looked up all the phone numbers I could find belonging to the seller's namesakes and sent them all a collective text message, asking them if they had attempted to sell a Moog Prodigy recently. I got a few rather nice responses, most importantly one from the woman I had first assumed to be the seller, saying that she hadn't sold anyone a Prodigy. So I sent yet another email to the "seller", this time forgoing all the pretences, preferring instead to jump right into Liam Neeson in Taken. Well, nearly anyway. After threatening to have a chat with the police, I finally received a response.

She told me she was terribly sorry, but that her life had taken a very bad turn and that she was in a rough condition, having been evicted and living off a former co-worker, as well as weighing below 8 stone (not especially shocking for a woman, but oh well). She offered no explanation as to why she decided she should rip off a stranger looking for a synth, or if she had been doing this systematically, but she said she wanted to pay me back, with interest, but in instalments. I told her I was not interested in the compensation, and that I simply wanted my money back, immediately and all at once. After this she stopped replying again.

After a few days I thought I should remind her that I could still very well go and have a chat with the police, and as it turns out, that same trick worked wonders again. I got a new response, and this time he signed it using a different name. Yes, he. It came as no surprise really; I was fairly certain the identity was assumed. This time he told me he had been robbed in Spain. His writing was quite scrambled, so I'm not sure if he means to say that this was the reason for his dire situation, or if it happened afterwards. I'm not even sure he remembers what he previously told me. At any rate, it's plain to see I can't trust anything he says. Once again he asked me if he could give me my money back in instalments, much like a hired purchase. I told him that a hired purchase usually entails a purchase, one of which he obviously hasn't made, and that I really can't afford to wait for my money to be doled out to me in portions.

Now, he seems to have dropped the instalment plan, but is asking for three weeks to get ahold of the money. I've no desire to wait three weeks just to see if he'll keep his word, which is worth bugger all at this point. And of course, I've absolutely nothing to do with his being "robbed in spain" or whatever story he'll come up with next. But I'm not quite sure how to respond now. If I tell him I need the money by Monday or I'll file a report with the police, and he is bluffing and indeed has the money, and he actually repays me, then I'll be all set. However, if I do that and he doesn't actually have the money, then I've lost my leverage and the chances of being reunited with that money anytime soon, and the only thing I can do is hope that the police do their job, quickly.

So, any advice?

[b]TO BE CONTINUED[/b]

[timhiggins]

If a transfer for the full amount is not made to you by monday then go to the police
and i dont think you should accept part payment as that might constitute you entering into a contract
with him whereby the police cant do a lot about the fraud.
...good luck i hope you get some sort of result soon.

[leschirons]

I appreciate that your financial situation is tending to dictate your actions but the guy had intentionally committed fraud. He needs to be prosecuted.

Have you any info regarding his real name or whereabouts?

[tedmanzie]

Talk to your bank today and explain you've been done, they may be able to do something before you decide to go to the police.

[molan]

This happened to me this year.

My bank could not get the money back and the police have passed it around between different divisions but have essentially said they aren't going to bother doing anything.

They have the name of the person and their bank account details too.

In my case I appearednti be buying from a very knowledgable guy but it turned out to be a scamming young girl.

I found evidence of him/her all over the place getting money from at least 7-8 other people. Really quite professional too. Never selling the same item twice and categories as diverse as guitars, bicycles, golf clubs, fishing gear, car parts etc.

Even with all this evidence the police weren't interested.

I wrote to my MP too. Got a nice letter back saying he couldn't be arsed to do anything either. . .

[HowieBass]

Is it time to name and shame yet just to make sure no others on here are scammed by this individual?

[mcnach]

a few years ago I was offered a bass I was after, after putting a 'wanted' ad. Fortunately the bass was just a cheap Squier Jazz so I was only out £95... but it still bothered me a lot.
I started suspecting when the communication went quiet and the bass did not arrive when indicated. I googled the bass then and sure enough, I found the pictures he sent me on the first page of hits, only it belonged to someone in Ireland, not the 'seller'.

I had paid with Paypal, not gift.
I could go to Paypal, but I decided to investigate further. A number of people had checked his profile here. I checked and they all had posted 'wanted' ads. I contacted them and the ones that replied had all bought something from him and were waiting. We all used Paypal, but one guy used Paypal gift.
The mods here quickly banned him, but of course that doesn't get us our money back.

At that point I decided to bluff, as I sensed the guy was not the brightest. I made up a story about my partner working for the police and that she had friends dealing with internet fraud who I was sure they'd help. At that point I had an idea of his general location, so I took a gamble and told him I knew already his address in XXX city. I tried to be calm, but very firm, stating that I was not going to let it slide especially now that I knew he had done the same to several others. He told me a sorry story, about how his financial situation is bad and he was desperate etc etc... and he seemed genuinely afraid of the consequences of my letting the police pursue this. The more he wrote, the more clueless he appeared. Which is good. For me.

So I bluffed a bit more, and described possible scenarios.
One, just let the police deal with it.
Two... he could refund ALL of us, and I'd let it be (I wasn't going to let it be).
Three... I was actually going to visit a friend of mine in his city in 2 weeks, so we could come round and just refund us in person (I made it sound non threatening, I knew that the idea of facing someone in person would be very unappealing)

Of course he said he'd refund us... but of course he didn't have enough money yet. He needed time.
I said that the only way for me to believe his word would be to at least refund one of us, the guy who paid with Paypal gift. And HE DID!!!

As soon as he did, the rest of us opened up a case with Paypal, and we got our money back. Paypal said they were going to investigate further and get the police involved and told us that we may be contacted by the police about the case etc etc. But I never heard anything else.

Best of luck to the OP. It really stinks to be in that situation.

[tauzero]

You can try getting the police involved. They'll almost certainly ignore you and tell you it's a civil matter.

[Luulox]

Instalments from a thief wouldn't fill me with confidence. Police should be your first call, although I doubt the police will do anything as it seems that they consider very little to be a police matter any more. Try and find an address.

[Luulox]

Was it someone one here?

[ZilchWoolham]

It's not a basschatter, fortunately. I've got a first name, which may or may not be correct, and a bank account number. Should be very easy to trace, but I too am worried that the police might find it quite a bit down in their list of priorities.

I've sent him a message back now. I told him he really has no right in asking for three weeks, and that I need the money by Tuesday. So now I'm hoping that he was bluffing, and that he's scared enough to actually give me my money back.

Edited December 17, 2016 by ZilchWoolham

[chriswareham]

If you can get a name and address, then try the small claims court since you have a record of the transaction including his bank details. Keep all the texts and emails, but don't agree to anything other than a full refund in one lump sum. When you win in the small claims court he will have a grace period in which to pay you, otherwise you can apply for a court order to send the baillifs in. I have gone this route once and it worked (the debtor paid me in the grave period). When the police say it's a civil matter, then this is the course of action to take.

[leschirons]

I understand that the police are unwilling to get involved in lots of stuff these days but they seem to be putting across the message that they don't consider deliberate fraud to be a criminal offence anymore.

[Thunderbird]

[quote name='leschirons' timestamp='1482057181' post='3197196']
I understand that the police are unwilling to get involved in lots of stuff these days but they seem to be putting across the message that they don't consider deliberate fraud to be a criminal offence anymore.
[/quote]through police are bloody useless I think the system is to blame all police seem to be doing is sitting in camera vans around here

[yorks5stringer]

[quote name='ZilchWoolham' timestamp='1481992110' post='3196841']
It's not a basschatter, fortunately. I've got a first name, which may or may not be correct, and a bank account number. Should be very easy to trace, but I too am worried that the police might find it quite a bit down in their list of priorities.

I've sent him a message back now. I told him he really has no right in asking for three weeks, and that I need the money by Tuesday. So now I'm hoping that he was bluffing, and that he's scared enough to actually give me my money back.
[/quote]

Not wishing to rain on your parade, but if this guy does this sort of thing regularly I suspect he's laughing at you and unless you can prove to the Police he's done this to lots of others too, they are not going to be interested. Don't know if there is any mileage in seeing if he has done it before with others...?

[Owen]

I was swindled by someone once. I had paid by Paypal and after a lot of bleating from him about it being on it's way I dropped his backside into PP's care. They locked his account down, refunded my money and shut him down for a good month. I hugely enjoyed the end of the process but not the bit before then. I know this is of no help to OP and I am not saying "you should have done it my way" cos I have done bank transfers in the same way as you. This is for anyone else reading and thinking about buying from an unknown source - always PP straight and if they bleat about fees then add the 3% to the figure. Sadly not everyone out there is as cool as we all are. Again OP, please don't take this as a criticism of how you did it, it is not that. Many of us have done it just the same way.

[Owen]

If you have a name and a city then perhaps you could give us the city and then anyone from there could pm you for the name. It is amazing how easy it is to find people on facebook if there is even a tenuous local connection. I am in no way suggesting collecting a posse to sort him out but him knowing that you know exactly who he is and where he is will focus his mind. My mishap happened on the Mike Dolbear drum forum and the guy was tracked down pretty quickly between us all.

[ZilchWoolham]

[quote name='yorks5stringer' timestamp='1482179192' post='3198289']
Not wishing to rain on your parade, but if this guy does this sort of thing regularly I suspect he's laughing at you and unless you can prove to the Police he's done this to lots of others too, they are not going to be interested. Don't know if there is any mileage in seeing if he has done it before with others...?
[/quote]
Oh, no worries, I wasn't parading to begin with. He could certainly be bluffing, or he could not. The problem is, I doubt I could trust his answer if I ask him whether he's a seasoned swindler or not.

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1482247195' post='3198834']
I was swindled by someone once. I had paid by Paypal and after a lot of bleating from him about it being on it's way I dropped his backside into PP's care. They locked his account down, refunded my money and shut him down for a good month. I hugely enjoyed the end of the process but not the bit before then. I know this is of no help to OP and I am not saying "you should have done it my way" cos I have done bank transfers in the same way as you. This is for anyone else reading and thinking about buying from an unknown source - always PP straight and if they bleat about fees then add the 3% to the figure. Sadly not everyone out there is as cool as we all are. Again OP, please don't take this as a criticism of how you did it, it is not that. Many of us have done it just the same way.
[/quote]
No offence taken! I usually never pay in advance, actually, but I was just so eager this time. He knew how to play me, I suppose! Unfortunately I only have a first name, which may or may not be correct, and no location. I do have his actual bank account number, though.

EDIT: I just remembered something that might be of significance. When I realised I had been taken for a ride, I looked up the IP number from which the reply to my ad had been sent (obviously I should have done this before giving him my money). It showed up as being used in Spain. Could this mean he actually was abroad, robbed and desperate? Otherwise, he must've had some really good foresight to use a fake IP that he could, much later, tie to a sob story.

Edited December 20, 2016 by ZilchWoolham

[Woodinblack]

[quote name='ZilchWoolham' timestamp='1482250958' post='3198889']
EDIT: I just remembered something that might be of significance. When I realised I had been taken for a ride, I looked up the IP number from which the reply to my ad had been sent (obviously I should have done this before giving him my money). It showed up as being used in Spain. Could this mean he actually was abroad, robbed and desperate? Otherwise, he must've had some really good foresight to use a fake IP that he could, much later, tie to a sob story.
[/quote]

Doesn't mean anything. I have a VPN account and a menu up there ^ where I can select what country I appear to come from.