NBD (future): the AliExpress experiment

[Grahambythesea]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1484076042' post='3212514']
[URL=http://s8.photobucket.com/user/peredur/media/Tele_zpsmfngoedd.jpeg.html][IMG]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/peredur/Tele_zpsmfngoedd.jpeg[/IMG][/URL]
[/quote]wow, Gretsch should have been making that! Very rockabilly. How's the quality and playability?

[Kiwi]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1482948961' post='3203717']
Having dealt with Chinese businesses at my job, I'm very aware of communication issues. It can be a real nightmare.
[/quote]
Try living and being an entreprenuer there! I'm lucky I still have my sanity and hair. Being informed that there Chinese way of doing things and then seeing sh*t hitting the wall after my advice wasn't heeded has made me less tolerant...not more worldly (and this isn't my first time here).

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1482948961' post='3203717']
It pays to write concise and clear instructions... but even then misunderstandings do arise, it's true, ha! Still, they are not stupid and they want you to be happy so that you give them your money. They will work with you, you just need to remain focused, feed information in bite size chunks, and remain polite.[/quote]
I could go on for hours about why this is the case.

Mostly I believe it's the education system - it focuses exclusively on remembering facts and passing tests, not on understanding and problem solving. My niece is 12 and works until 11pm each night on homework (and she has a near photographic memory so never needed to study much in the past). It's a relentless grind for them with no room for personal development and I feel sorry for the poor bastards. The education system produces machines, not thinkers. Still...some, like my inlaws, can't help but think outside the box .

In terms of generally working with Chinese, some allowance needs to be made for skill levels not being as high as in western countries and details get overlooked very easily. It's much more efficient to give them an example of what is wanted if so much of what is expected lies in attention to detail. It's then easy to point to the bits that are key to quality. Then they need training time to gain confidence and experience through repetition. As you say they're very eager to please. Once they've got the hang of what is expected, they turn into machines and can work relentlessly and very consistently - (as they are expected to by the education system).

As for the topic of IP, it's a source of considerable frustration for myself. Trying to develop proof of concept without the manufacturing partner stealing those ideas is almost impossible to enforce legally. Yes there are confidentiality agreements that can be set up but the courts here generally like to have a pop at western interests on the basis of principle if there is an opportunity. So even if you took a company to court, used Chinese representation and had all the paper work in place, the courts might delay a decision indefinitely.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1484105999' post='3212735']
Try living and being an entreprenuer there! I'm lucky I still have my sanity and hair. Being informed that there Chinese way of doing things and then seeing sh*t hitting the wall after my advice wasn't heeded has made me less tolerant...not more worldly (and this isn't my first time here).


I could go on for hours about why this is the case.

Mostly I believe it's the education system - it focuses exclusively on remembering facts and passing tests, not on understanding and problem solving. My niece is 12 and works until 11pm each night on homework (and she has a near photographic memory so never needed to study much in the past). It's a relentless grind for them with no room for personal development and I feel sorry for the poor bastards. The education system produces machines, not thinkers. Still...some, like my inlaws, can't help but think outside the box .

In terms of generally working with Chinese, some allowance needs to be made for skill levels not being as high as in western countries and details get overlooked very easily. It's much more efficient to give them an example of what is wanted if so much of what is expected lies in attention to detail. It's then easy to point to the bits that are key to quality. Then they need training time to gain confidence and experience through repetition. As you say they're very eager to please. Once they've got the hang of what is expected, they turn into machines and can work relentlessly and very consistently - (as they are expected to by the education system).

As for the topic of IP, it's a source of considerable frustration for myself. Trying to develop proof of concept without the manufacturing partner stealing those ideas is almost impossible to enforce legally. Yes there are confidentiality agreements that can be set up but the courts here generally like to have a pop at western interests on the basis of principle if there is an opportunity. So even if you took a company to court, used Chinese representation and had all the paper work in place, the courts might delay a decision indefinitely.
[/quote]

Interesting post, thank you!

[NancyJohnson]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1484105999' post='3212735']
Try living and being an entreprenuer there! I'm lucky I still have my sanity and hair. Being informed that there Chinese way of doing things and then seeing sh*t hitting the wall after my advice wasn't heeded has made me less tolerant...not more worldly (and this isn't my first time here).


I could go on for hours about why this is the case.

Mostly I believe it's the education system - it focuses exclusively on remembering facts and passing tests, not on understanding and problem solving. My niece is 12 and works until 11pm each night on homework (and she has a near photographic memory so never needed to study much in the past). It's a relentless grind for them with no room for personal development and I feel sorry for the poor bastards. The education system produces machines, not thinkers. Still...some, like my inlaws, can't help but think outside the box .

In terms of generally working with Chinese, some allowance needs to be made for skill levels not being as high as in western countries and details get overlooked very easily. It's much more efficient to give them an example of what is wanted if so much of what is expected lies in attention to detail. It's then easy to point to the bits that are key to quality. Then they need training time to gain confidence and experience through repetition. As you say they're very eager to please. Once they've got the hang of what is expected, they turn into machines and can work relentlessly and very consistently - (as they are expected to by the education system).

As for the topic of IP, it's a source of considerable frustration for myself. Trying to develop proof of concept without the manufacturing partner stealing those ideas is almost impossible to enforce legally. Yes there are confidentiality agreements that can be set up but the courts here generally like to have a pop at western interests on the basis of principle if there is an opportunity. So even if you took a company to court, used Chinese representation and had all the paper work in place, the courts might delay a decision indefinitely.
[/quote]

Until last September, I worked for a subcontractor deeply embedded within a global-Chinese telecom business.

While you want to come across on a forum as understanding and politically correct, sadly I can't on this matter. I found the environment not unlike being beamed onto a Borg cube; a hive mindset where you really only have two choices when working with them; their way or not your way. Pleasant enough to your face (or if you're lucky enough to engage with one of them alone, away from the nest), I found them wholly untrustworthy in business and despite assurances during meetings, they would deny everything and do the opposite of what they'd agreed to do. I won't go into their toilet habits or the constant hawking up and flobbing into plant pots. Oh, sorry. I did.

[kodiakblair]

Spoke to a Welsh fella start of the month. He'd got a unlined fretless 6'er, stealth black and in the shape of a R!C

Despite his missus being Chinese it was still an effort. Every detail has to be covered,as expected his electrics weren't up to much but he
seemed happy enough with the result.

If it's any help to folks He used the name "Mr Chan" throughout the whole thing and reckons he saved £150

[Kiwi]

[quote name='NancyJohnson' timestamp='1488119277' post='3245975']
Until last September, I worked for a subcontractor deeply embedded within a global-Chinese telecom business.

While you want to come across on a forum as understanding and politically correct, sadly I can't on this matter. I found the environment not unlike being beamed onto a Borg cube; a hive mindset where you really only have two choices when working with them; their way or not your way. Pleasant enough to your face (or if you're lucky enough to engage with one of them alone, away from the nest), I found them wholly untrustworthy in business and despite assurances during meetings, they would deny everything and do the opposite of what they'd agreed to do. I won't go into their toilet habits or the constant hawking up and flobbing into plant pots. Oh, sorry. I did.
[/quote]

LOL, yeah as a culture they are generally not as empathic as the English - particularly the men and particularly in the rural areas have a very difference understanding of privacy and body functions. Everyone I know who has visited China comes back with a nasty food story and a nasty toilet story, too.

While you don't mention whether you're referring to colleagues or clients, I've encountered exactly the same attitudes as you.

Culturally what the group you belong to think of you is more important to your Chinese peers than what your skills or experience are - a big difference to western culture. What you witnessed was politics at the interpersonal level taking precedent over everything else and because you weren't part of the group, what you thought or said didn't carry as much weight - regardless of whether you were right or not. Everyone in business (who is at least working) has an angle they're playing and for some, gamesmanship (seeing what they can get away with) is actually a hobby. You may have also heard of the term 'guang xi'. To some in the west, its a euphemism for bribery and corruption but really it's about relationship management - doing favours for each other to build respect, trust and influence. Group think is strong here and people will even do things that compromise the quality of an outcome if it helps them all feel better about each other (a bit like an incompetent local government middle manager).

While I was working here 15 years ago as a consultant - we basically had to assume clients would act in bad faith and prepare in advance, like withholding the documents and drawings until our invoice was paid in full. Once they knew we had outmaneuvered them, butter wouldn't melt in their collective mouths.

I also had a situation last year that cause me to lose a significant sum of money after the concerns I'd repeatedly raised about the general manager of a business I'd invested in were dismissed. I was told I didn't know how things were done in China.

Unfortunately late last year the company went about as close to bankruptcy as its possible to get without collapsing specifically because of the concerns I'd raised. Suffice to say I was incandescent with rage and pointed out that while I didn't have a detailed knowledge of Chinese business culture, things go wrong exactly the same way all over the world when there is inadequate risk management and autocratic leadership with delusions of grandeur. The problem with knowledge in this situation wasn't my lack of it but their unwillingness to address the issues and by the time they did address the issues it was too late. I still have a share in the company, my stake has gone up from 10% to 50% and the business has been pivoted into a different sector. The value of the company is still near zero though.

You may have also heard of the term 'guang xi'. To some in the west, its a euphemism for bribery and corruption but really it's about relationship management - doing favours for each other to build respect, trust and influence within a group. But often without good leadership or management, the groups will either wander off target or they will work in their own interests rather than the agreed goals.

It sounds like you had a first hand experience of guang xi. If I was to have provided advice in this situation, I would have suggested bribery - cakes, donuts, gifts from the UK, anything they might welcome that would build your influence. Either that or get yourself some Chinese support from a high place within the company. Where bribery fails, power prevails.

I found it just makes me appreciate the honest, trusthworthy types even more than in the UK.