Are you a bigot?

[TimR]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487255890' post='3238417']


Why? There are lots of ethnic minorities in Britain, does every activity have to look at all the percentages and make sure every one is represented in everything, regardless of weather they want to be? Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

It has nothing to do with my "Ingrained attitude" All popular music is MOBO, I have already pointed that out. Claiming the British have the same racial leanings as the most Redneck section of the US Southern States is also very wide of the mark. We are talking music here and from what I can see no one has any problem with black or ethnic musicians. I lived in rural France for two years and did not expect the populace to bend over backwards and modify there customs and lifestyle to accommodate me, I stood out because I was English, even amongst the black and ethnic minority French. Its peoples differences that make them interesting, imagine how boring the world would be if we all looked and spoke the same.

If someone wants to make music, or run a marathon or swim the Atlantic, its there choice and there desire that will get them there, regardless of ethnicity or gender.

Take Stevie Wonder. Not just black, but blind from birth. Did he become one of the most influential and best selling musicians of the late 20th century because of positive discrimination? No, he did it because he was highly talented and he had the desire and drive to get to the very top. Was he a great blind,black musician/ songwriter? No, he was a great musician/songwriter, period.
[/quote]

Nobody said anything about 'making sure'. I said expect. That's from the law of averages.

You would probably (if everything was equal) expect to see 50% of musicians to be women.

Are they?

There are certain activities that a large proportion of people don't do, not because they don't want to, or because they can't, but because no one expects them to. Including themselves. That's ingrained.

If a man wants to wear a skirt, there's nothing in law that says he can't. The expectation is that he won't and if he does, people will question it, some people will even say it's wrong.

Would I wear a skirt? No. Why? Because I think it is a piece of woman's clothing and I have no desire to wear one. But why do I think it's a piece of woman's clothing? Scotsmen wear kilts, and Hari Krishna monks wear dresses. It's been ingrained by society that men do not wear skirts.

All MOBO does is give certain people some encouragement.

[mikel]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487267760' post='3238533']
Nobody said anything about 'making sure'. I said expect. That's from the law of averages.

[b]You would probably (if everything was equal) expect to see 50% of musicians to be women[/b].

Are they?

There are certain activities that a large proportion of people don't do, not because they don't want to, or because they can't, but because no one expects them to. Including themselves. That's ingrained.

If a man wants to wear a skirt, there's nothing in law that says he can't. The expectation is that he won't and if he does, people will question it, some people will even say it's wrong.

Would I wear a skirt? No. Why? Because I think it is a piece of woman's clothing and I have no desire to wear one. But why do I think it's a piece of woman's clothing? Scotsmen wear kilts, and Hari Krishna monks wear dresses. It's been ingrained by society that men do not wear skirts.

All MOBO does is give certain people some encouragement.
[/quote]

But everything isnt equal, or average. Firstly people have to want to do something, they have to aspire to it. Secondly you have people who do an activity but have no desire to take it to a competitive level or to even do it in public. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

[TimR]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487276211' post='3238623']


But everything isnt equal, or average. Firstly people have to want to do something, they have to aspire to it. Secondly you have people who do an activity but have no desire to take it to a competitive level or to even do it in public. Lies, damn lies and statistics.
[/quote]

But there should be an equal number of both sexes shouldn't there?

If 3% of the population are black then that 3% should be represented in every activity.

So yes. There is the proof. We don't live in an equal society.

.

[mikel]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487279546' post='3238665']
But there should be an equal number of both sexes shouldn't there?

If 3% of the population are black then that 3% should be represented in every activity.

So yes. There is the proof. We don't live in an equal society.

.
[/quote]

You have a very strange view of the world if you think everything is governed by statistics. I know it would be all neat and tidy that every business and every occupation had 3% ethnic minorities involved, because that is the population percentage,but people dont operate like that, humans do what they want or like to do not what statistics say they should.

[stingrayPete1977]

I live in a typically growing village, I suppose it has ........


Hang on I have googled this to see if I can find out before making my point, where I live we have hardly any ethnic minorities, if you set a play where I live you would need to have an all white cast.
[url="https://www.citypopulation.de/php/uk-england-westmidlands.php?cityid=E34001879"]https://www.citypopu...ityid=E34001879[/url]

How is that for an ageing white christian middle class place to live?

EDIT to say I am not middle class, Christian and we are not sure about the white bit beyond one generation.

Edited February 16, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[mikel]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487283241' post='3238709']
I live in a typically growing village, I suppose it has ........


Hang on I have googled this to see if I can find out before making my point, where I live we have hardly any ethnic minorities, if you set a play where I live you would need to have an all white cast.
[url="https://www.citypopulation.de/php/uk-england-westmidlands.php?cityid=E34001879"]https://www.citypopu...ityid=E34001879[/url]

How is that for an ageing white christian middle class place to live?

EDIT to say I am not middle class, Christian and we are not sure about the white bit beyond one generation.
[/quote]

With you on that, my ancestors were Breton. Birmingham has less than 60% white middle class population, I guess if we want to get to the statistical norm we need to kick out a lot of people to comply with the required 3%. I wonder if thats why more than 3% of the Great Birmingham run are from ethnic minorities? beats me.

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487279546' post='3238665']
If 3% of the population are black then that 3% should be represented in every activity.
[/quote]

What if a minority doesn't want to be represented? You can't [i]make[/i] people do ballet if they'd rather be doing something else.

Or what if there is a [i]higher[/i] than 'average' representation of any particular minority group within any particular activity, say, for example, Welsh people performing at Eisteddfods?

Should there be fewer Welsh performers there? And - if so - who's going to decide which Welsh people will have to pack up and go home? And who's going to tell them?

And will they tell them in Welsh?

Because if they tell them to go home in English someone will kick up a stink and shout something like 'That's "[i]Mynd adref chi bobl mewn rhesi 1 drwy 21[/i]" you English c**t!' even if the person doing the asking is themselves Welsh but can't speak Welsh, which is another oppressed sub-group actually but let's not get into that otherwise we'll have Plaid Cymru druids out the ying-yang for days on end, banging on about the threat to indigenous culture and Tom Jones.

So basically f**king pointless, really.
[color=#ffffe0].[/color]

Edited February 16, 2017 by skankdelvar

[skankdelvar]

Oh, and the reason 50% of cover band musicians aren't women is they're most of them not interested in doing it. What are you going to do? Put a gun to their heads and say:

'You can be the singer. Wear something nice, not too tight.'

[cheddatom]

No one is suggesting we should have positive discrimination enforcing the make-up of bands. TimR was merely trying to explain the concept of positive discrimination, and why it's sometimes deemed necessary. More specifically, he was trying to explain why the MOBO awards could be a positive thing

because several posters expressed opinions along the lines "Why does there have to be music awards for black music? We don't have music awards for white music, it's ridiculous!!" as though they fail to understand the disadvantages that come with being from an ethnic minority in our society, even today.

*I hope I've not stepped on your toes there TimR

[TimR]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487281294' post='3238684']


You have a very strange view of the world if you think everything is governed by statistics. I know it would be all neat and tidy that every business and every occupation had 3% ethnic minorities involved, because that is the population percentage,but people dont operate like that, humans do what they want or like to do not what statistics say they should.
[/quote]

Again everyone is missing the point.

People only want to do things that fit into society's view of 'normal'. There are people who don't fit into society's box but we call them eccentrics. Choice is an illusion and is heavily influenced by what other people (and yourself) expect you to choose.

Why don't any of you guys want to wear skirts?

It's a simple question. Think about it. Then look around at jobs that are traditionally done by men and women and ask why men and women have 'chosen' to do those jobs.

Why don't women choose to be in cover bands then?

Statistics tell you everything about how things are distributed, they don't tell you why they're distributed or how to distribute them.

.

Edited February 17, 2017 by TimR

[TimR]

[quote name='cheddatom' timestamp='1487320966' post='3238852']

...

as though they fail to understand the disadvantages that come with being from an ethnic minority in our society, even today.

*I hope I've not stepped on your toes there TimR
[/quote]

Quite.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487284186' post='3238722']


With you on that, my ancestors were Breton. Birmingham has less than 60% white middle class population, I guess if we want to get to the statistical norm we need to kick out a lot of people to comply with the required 3%. I wonder if thats why more than 3% of the Great Birmingham run are from ethnic minorities? beats me.
[/quote]

At the same time my wife grew up near Chetham Hill in Manchester, the cast of a film set there would be a massive mixture with white British Christian possibly not featured certainly not add a main character.


A bloke in the Spice Girls wouldn't have worked would it?

Edited February 17, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[TimR]

I also have a big suspicion that people don't understand statistics.

Take this example:
Two towns of the same size.
Town A has 60% people who are in group A and 40% who are in group B. For 10 people in a job you expect to see 6 from group A and 4 from group B
Town B has 10% people who are in group A and 90% in group B. For 10 people in a job you expect to see 1 from group A and 9 from group B.

All good so far. Everything works fine and everyone is happy.

Looking at the two towns combined 35% are in group A and 65% are in group B.

But if you now look at the towns individually but incorrectly apply the result from the combined statistics. Group B are under represented in Town A and Group A are under represented in Town B.

So statistics don't tell you the whole story, they're not nonsense but you need to understand how they work and what exactly they're telling you.

[stingrayPete1977]

If one is a factory making welded metal products and the other is a telesales business they are unlikely to have staff from similar groups, as long as a middle class girl isn't turned away from applying to be a welder and a hairy arsed bloke is allowed to work in the office I don't have a problem with it, as Skank says making a young girl be a welder just to massage the figures would be wrong.

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487327060' post='3238943']
If one is a factory making welded metal products and the other is a telesales business they are unlikely to have staff from similar groups, as long as a middle class girl isn't turned away from applying to be a welder and a hairy arsed bloke is allowed to work in the office I don't have a problem with it, as Skank says making a young girl be a welder just to massage the figures would be wrong.
[/quote]

Making anyone do something they don't want to do is wrong.

Why doesn't the young girl want to be a welder?

[stingrayPete1977]

That's my point, as long as she's allowed to why does it matter?

[stingrayPete1977]

If there's a skills shortage in one area EVERYONE should be encouraged to have a look to see if they fancy it, if not I don't see why it matters.

[TimR]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487328072' post='3238957']
That's my point, as long as she's allowed to why does it matter?
[/quote]

Because young girls are underrepresented in engineering. Which means that more young girls who would like to do engineering are put off because it's a job done by 'hairy arsed blokes', even though they'd quite like to do it, which means they continue to be underrepresented and the circle continues.

A young girl who goes into heavy engineering is considered 'odd'.

Societal pressure.

Engineering is a good example but MOBO is effectively doing the same as a TV advert featuring only young girls does for engineering.

.

Edited February 17, 2017 by TimR

[mikel]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487321305' post='3238859']
[b]Again everyone is missing the point.[/b]

People only want to do things that fit into society's view of 'normal'. There are people who don't fit into society's box but we call them eccentrics. Choice is an illusion and is heavily influenced by what other people (and yourself) expect you to choose.

Why don't any of you guys want to wear skirts?

It's a simple question. Think about it. Then look around at jobs that are traditionally done by men and women and ask why men and women have 'chosen' to do those jobs.

Why don't women choose to be in cover bands then?

Statistics tell you everything about how things are distributed, they don't tell you why they're distributed or how to distribute them.

.
[/quote]

What, except you? Probably because you are so much cleverer than we are.

Why don't I wear a skirt on a regular basis? Because I don't like having cold legs, or having to keep my legs crossed, for modesty, every time I sit down. That's why. I have worn the kilt, for weddings, as I can wear the the Northumberland tartan. For everyday use I would find it irritating.

What you fail to understand is that males and females are different. We think and act differently. Not better or worse, just different. Many learned papers have been produced trying to understand why, and failed. Perhaps its simply human nature. Humans are massively complex and elusive, it must drive statisticians bonkers that they cant put us tidily into any box. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Oh, and there are loads of covers bands round here with female members. We have two female singers in our band. My mate is the drummer in an otherwise all female band.

Edited February 17, 2017 by mikel

[stingrayPete1977]

My last three bands have had a female front man

[stingrayPete1977]

[URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/stock-photo-beautiful-woman-repair-soldering-a-printed-circuit-board-204001492_zpsy46ovk4q.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/stock-photo-beautiful-woman-repair-soldering-a-printed-circuit-board-204001492_zpsy46ovk4q.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[KingBollock]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1487331426' post='3239004']
[URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/stock-photo-beautiful-woman-repair-soldering-a-printed-circuit-board-204001492_zpsy46ovk4q.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/stock-photo-beautiful-woman-repair-soldering-a-printed-circuit-board-204001492_zpsy46ovk4q.jpg[/IMG][/URL]


[/quote]
That reminds me of when I was in college doing electronics. They were doing some publicity thing with a local news paper and they chose me for the photos to go in the paper. I can't remember what I was working on, but I was using a soldering iron. The photographer didn't like the iron and had me hold a pair of pliers, as though they were a soldering iron, instead.

[TimR]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487329834' post='3238983']


What, except you? Probably because you are so much cleverer than we are.

Why don't I wear a skirt on a regular basis? Because I don't like having cold legs, or having to keep my legs crossed, for modesty, every time I sit down. That's why. I have worn the kilt, for weddings, as I can wear the the Northumberland tartan. For everyday use I would find it irritating.

What you fail to understand is that males and females are different. We think and act differently. Not better or worse, just different. Many learned papers have been produced trying to understand why, and failed. Perhaps its simply human nature. Humans are massively complex and elusive, it must drive statisticians bonkers that they cant put us tidily into any box. Lies, damn lies and statistics.

Oh, and there are loads of covers bands round here with female members. We have two female singers in our band. My mate is the drummer in an otherwise all female band.
[/quote]

Males and females are not that different. Hormones drive the way we feel and act and so certain activities will gain more men and some will gain more women. However that doesn't go anywhere close to why activities that neither sex have an advantage in are prodominatly one sex.
The current record holder for the double Bob Graham round is a woman. Women are better at long distance endurance events than men and yet there are more men involved. Why are there so few women racing drivers or footballers when they're much better than men?

How do you explain ethnic minorities then?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1487334479' post='3239048']

That reminds me of when I was in college doing electronics. They were doing some publicity thing with a local news paper and they chose me for the photos to go in the paper. I can't remember what I was working on, but I was using a soldering iron. The photographer didn't like the iron and had me hold a pair of pliers, as though they were a soldering iron, instead.
[/quote]

At least she has safety glasses on to protect her burnt hand, lol.

[mikel]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487336310' post='3239079']
Males and females are not that different. Hormones drive the way we feel and act and so certain activities will gain more men and some will gain more women. However that doesn't go anywhere close to why activities that neither sex have an advantage in are prodominatly one sex.
[b]The current record holder for the double Bob Graham round is a woman. Women are better at long distance endurance events than men and yet there are more men involved[/b]. Why are there so few women racing drivers or footballers when they're much better than men?

How do you explain ethnic minorities then?
[/quote]

I am well aware of the female's inherent endurance capability, being an endurance coach myself. Why are there more men involved? Because more men aspire to do it, nothing sinister.

I coach at an athletics club and we currently have a 73% female bias, should we kick out some females so we can achieve the 50-50 that you espouse?

If I own a business and decide I must have a 50-50 gender split, simply because the population may or may not be that, what do I do if someone leaves?

Say there are 3 outstanding applicants who have got through the first interview stage for a top management job. Should I hire the woman, simply because of her gender, even though one of the men is better qualified, has more relevant experience and came over much better in the second interview, simply cos its a woman that left and it will maintain the status quo? Or do what is best for my business and go for the outstanding candidate, regardless of gender?