Bridge issue - opinions please

[Musashimonkey]

Guys, very impressed with all your opinions and support. Thank you. Sandberg has been notified and it's going back to the shop anyway (as the bottom strap pin was broken). I'll see what is suggrsted but will likely go for a refund here, the issue will likely get worse over time with neck angle changing and frets wearing. I agree that the shim, although a possible solution may negate the Plek dress. So a shim or milling the saddle I don't feel is acceptable after spending close to 2k on a bass.

[BigRedX]

£2K for a bass essentially based on a design that has been around for over 60 years now. It should be perfect.

[GreeneKing]

[quote name='Musashimonkey' timestamp='1483606644' post='3208552']
The neck relief is spot on, it was already very good and just a smidge off straight. Fixing first and 16th fret spacing is about .012 (0.3mm) over the 8th fret = ideal in my book.
[/quote]

Good, you need to get rid imo.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1483627985' post='3208801']
Bodge might be a strong term, but nobody builds a bass from the ground up to incorporate a shim. If you find a shim in pocket straight from the factory, it's simply because they make mistakes too. It obviously makes sense from a manufacturing point of view to simply add a shim when the alternatives would be hard work.

There's nothing wrong with a shim if necessary on a used bass which has been around the block, but on a new bass I'd find it unacceptable.
[/quote]

Rightly or wrongly, I don't think mass produced instruments are made to very strict tolerances, which is why many end up with shims as it's an easy thing to do when assembling and checking over an instrument, as you indicate. They could work to tighter tolerances and put the price up, but I suppose they figured out using shims when required is a better proposition.

I don't care much whether it's a new or old instrument *if I like it enough*. Obviously I'd rather not have one, but it has never bothered me or any of my instruments that had one. Granted I have not owned any for 100 years but it's always been a set-and-forget matter. Except when the truss rod adjustment is at the body end and you meed to loosen up the neck to adjust. That's a royal pain in the arse when the shim moves. Other than that... I'd never know it's there.

Anyway, I made my point. Anything else would be repeating myself and bore everybody to death.

edit: on the OP's bass... I agree a return/replacement is probably the best option. No point having the neck plek'd if you are going to alter the neck angle afterwards, that's true, the set up will be wrong. It may not be very wrong, or it may be very noticeable... either way, not cool after spending £2000.

Edited January 5, 2017 by mcnach

[Ghost_Bass]

Right choice from the OP to send it back.

Regarding plek, doesn't it involve a certain amount of relief from the neck/trussrod to be done? Couldn't this be the another possible cause for the issue? In a normal fretted bass (non-plek) the relief can be taken back in order to lower the action, in a pleked bass it won't be possible as moving the truss will mess with the fret hights.

Maybe the bass has a construction flaw or maybe the plek service done (and charged) by the store wasn't done properly. In any case the bass has to go back and be fixed/replaced.

[Grangur]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1483624770' post='3208767']
You'd be surprised... even Warwick used them

As for it being a bodge... we'll have to disagree. It may not seem that elegant at first sight, but it's highly effective with no drawbacks. Yes, you may argue that theoretically the contact neck/body is reduced etc etc. But I'm only interested in what works or doesn't work *in use*. And shims work. No question about it.

edit: but then I also liked the micro-tilt mechanism on 3-bolt fenders (and some 4-bolt too, as my old Strat has that). It gave me all the adjustability I wanted and I never saw any problem -as long as the neck pocket is tight.
[/quote]
Those of my Warwick basses that I've taken apart can be lifted up by the neck and the body stays connected without the neck bolts in place. So the pockets on mine are tight. Surely if the neck pocket is that tight, adding a shim would cause strain between the neck and the sides of the pocket as the neck is no longer laying square in the socket?

I know I'm talking a small degree of twist, but it is a twist all the same.

Sorry if I caused any offence with the word "bodge". Maybe "work-around" would be better, but a spade is still a spade.

[stingrayPete1977]

Afaik all Ernie ball basses come with a factory shim.

[Musashimonkey]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1483647967' post='3209046']
Afaik all Ernie ball basses come with a factory shim.
[/quote]

Wow! Really?

[threedaymonk]

In my experience, any bass with a plank neck (i.e. Fender design) will need a shim if you want a low action. My '95 Stingray has one (but I don't know if that's original). I had to add one to my '09 American Standard Jazz to get the bridge screws to a sensible, non-palm-shredding height.

My Spector 6-string doesn't have one, but the bridge is routed several mm into the body.

I've always seen the need for a shim as an inevitable consequence of the Fender design. I've never encountered any problems, and I'm inclined to think that if that's all it takes to get a good bridge height, I'm pretty content.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Musashimonkey' timestamp='1483649521' post='3209055']


Wow! Really?
[/quote]

Yep it's plastic figure of eight piece thats goes in nearest the bridge, the fact they've got two more neck bolts than most basses means it aint exactly going to drop to bits.

[stingrayPete1977]

[URL=http://s997.photobucket.com/user/stingraypete/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-01/Y2Dneckshim_zps9ydlptaw.jpg.html][IMG]http://i997.photobucket.com/albums/af100/stingraypete/Mobile%20Uploads/2017-01/Y2Dneckshim_zps9ydlptaw.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

This is a factory EBMM shim, all mine have had one, a Fender microtilt holds the neck on with two screws and a third holds it over an adjustable spike, I'm not going to loose sleep over it.

[Musashimonkey]

Surely a shim is to replace too much material removed? Had the design tolerances been more accurate you wouldn't need one...

Would a good shim cover the full neck pocket otherwise it's an uneven surface which could create a hump in the neck?

I do think that shimming a neck that's been plekked is going to negate that treatment though.

Thanks for everyone's views. It's interesting to see the different opinions.

[Musashimonkey]

[quote name='threedaymonk' timestamp='1483649653' post='3209056']
In my experience, any bass with a plank neck (i.e. Fender design) will need a shim if you want a low action. My '95 Stingray has one (but I don't know if that's original). I had to add one to my '09 American Standard Jazz to get the bridge screws to a sensible, non-palm-shredding height.

My Spector 6-string doesn't have one, but the bridge is routed several mm into the body.

I've always seen the need for a shim as an inevitable consequence of the Fender design. I've never encountered any problems, and I'm inclined to think that if that's all it takes to get a good bridge height, I'm pretty content.
[/quote]

Shimming to lower the saddle screws (of an arguably poorly designed bridge) for comfort is different IMO to having to shim from not being able to lower the saddles low enough straight from the factory for the correct action.

Your Spector sounds well built, recessing the bridge is a solution, but not neccessary for this bass... it's relative height so it can be lost and made up wherever with material from neck, pocket, body under bridge or bridge thickness itself. Your Spector shows it can be done. 😊

I agree if you have an old bass and need to get a good bridge height that a shim could fix it, and it's opened my eyes as to how many have them; but I'm not sure that a bass should require a shim straight from the factory! I still think the saddles in this brand new bass should allow every string, not 4/5 to lower onto the fretboard.

[Musashimonkey]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1483617524' post='3208675']
You shouldn't have this problem with a Sandberg, they have great QC but some lemons may get through. Hopefully they have even better CS so the best thing you should do before messing with the bass and voiding your waranty is to get in touch with them (facebook or use the contact on the site) and they'll be happy to help you. They may also clear things about the store charging you for the plek service and would apreciate the information.
[/quote]

Good call, I'll do just that. 😊

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1483624770' post='3208767']
You'd be surprised... even Warwick used them
[/quote]

my word! How do I check??

[threedaymonk]

[quote name='Musashimonkey' timestamp='1483657200' post='3209160']
Surely a shim is to replace too much material removed? Had the design tolerances been more accurate you wouldn't need one...
[/quote]

It's really to change the pitch of the neck, which can't be affected by a manufacturing process based on cutting flat shapes with a router. If everything else were flat, the trigonometry would be straightforward and this wouldn't be an issue, but neck relief pushes the nut end higher. You could compensate for this by lowering the bridge, but the exact amount depends on the setup, and there are mechanical limits to how thin the bridge can be. The other solution is to change the pitch of the neck. This could be done by routing the neck pocket at a slight angle, but it's simpler, easier and more flexible to use a shim at this point.

The ability to finely adjust neck pitch so that the bridge saddles are all at a happy level given individual preferences of neck relief and action is a convenient feature of bolt-on necks. It's much harder to get things right on a through-neck, as you can read about [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/295059-bc-rich-mockingbird-tweaks/"]on this Mockingbird repair thread[/url].

[Musashimonkey]

^ Cool, thank you 😊

[PlungerModerno]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1483624042' post='3208752']
The point against a shim is that it's simply a bodge to make up for poor manufacturing standards. If you pay for good standards you should get good standards. Other makers manage to do it.
[/quote]

+1

Any hand crafted (i.e. traditionally made, without CNC) instrument, or indeed a 3D modelled modern equivalent should be checked at neck fitting stage for angle. It should be set up so at the factory specs - so that the grub screws are at least 90% flush with the saddles (for traditional style bridges) - and allow adjustment up or down a reasonable amount. Over time it may need a shim - depending on what the wood does (impossible to predict over the long term with any wood). This may have happened in this case - Sandberg may have made the bass well within spec - but it changed in the weeks or months (or years!) since the bass / neck / neck pocket was checked.
It's up to the shop to check this. If an adjustment is maxxed out the bass cannot be setup beyond that (e.g. lower action for picolo tuning for example). On a premium instrument - or any that expects you to pay for QC - it's not good enough. It should be so overbuilt as to last a lifetime with minimal maintence - not have a possible major symtom of an issue (which may get worse over time) from day one.

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1483647967' post='3209046']
Afaik all Ernie ball basses come with a factory shim.
[/quote]

But MusicMan basses are crap, right? They don't age well at all

[mcnach]

[quote name='threedaymonk' timestamp='1483659250' post='3209184']
It's really to change the pitch of the neck, which can't be affected by a manufacturing process based on cutting flat shapes with a router. If everything else were flat, the trigonometry would be straightforward and this wouldn't be an issue, but neck relief pushes the nut end higher. You could compensate for this by lowering the bridge, but the exact amount depends on the setup, and there are mechanical limits to how thin the bridge can be. The other solution is to change the pitch of the neck. This could be done by routing the neck pocket at a slight angle, but it's simpler, easier and more flexible to use a shim at this point.

The ability to finely adjust neck pitch so that the bridge saddles are all at a happy level given individual preferences of neck relief and action is a convenient feature of bolt-on necks. It's much harder to get things right on a through-neck, as you can read about [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/295059-bc-rich-mockingbird-tweaks/"]on this Mockingbird repair thread[/url].
[/quote]

very well explained, nice post.

[mcnach]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1483658406' post='3209176']
my word! How do I check??
[/quote]


oooh, I don't know. Have you got access to an MRI machine?

[Grangur]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1483692953' post='3209259']
oooh, I don't know. Have you got access to an MRI machine?
[/quote]

Easy I know of one near here. Mind you, have you seen the queue in A&E lately?!

[No lust in Jazz]

While I believe the right thing to do is to return the instrument. I am interested in whether this is how Sandbergs are set up - I owned one, but during this period of ownership I didn't need to lower the strings to touch the frets.

What can say is while they are made to a price point, they are well constructed and I would be surprised if their manufacturing / assembly / machining processes / final QC all conspired to let a 'lemon' creep out of the door.

Stranger things have happened and I hope that you get sorted.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1483692813' post='3209255']


But MusicMan basses are crap, right? They don't age well at all
[/quote]

Utter junk with twisted unstable necks

[BigRedX]

[quote name='threedaymonk' timestamp='1483659250' post='3209184']
It's really to change the pitch of the neck, which can't be affected by a manufacturing process based on cutting flat shapes with a router. If everything else were flat, the trigonometry would be straightforward and this wouldn't be an issue, but neck relief pushes the nut end higher. You could compensate for this by lowering the bridge, but the exact amount depends on the setup, and there are mechanical limits to how thin the bridge can be. The other solution is to change the pitch of the neck. This could be done by routing the neck pocket at a slight angle, but it's simpler, easier and more flexible to use a shim at this point.
[/quote]

That's fair enough for something made in the days when pin routers were the height of wood-working sophistication, but it's no longer the 1950s and these days pretty much everything that isn't individually crafted by a master luthier is produced on a CNC machine where it is simple to get the angles required. Add this to the fact that there's a surprisingly large amount of vertical adjustment available in even the BBT bridge and there is no reason why modern bolt-on guitars and basses can't be made with either the pocket or the heel machined to the correct angle instead of messing about with shims.