Record player set up query

[Basszilla]

Hi all,

I've bought a little set up for the house and being a complete vinyl newbie I'm struggling with the set up.

I bought a Project debut carbon espirit SB and a Cambridge audio CP1 preamp to partner it with.

I have a set of Adam A7 monitors and a tascam US1800 interface in the room.

How would I go about setting it up correctly with this gear? Any ideas?

Do I just skip the us1800 and go straight into the CP1 preamp and from there into the unbalanced RCA ins on my monitors? (Which would give me no primary master fader, just the individual volumes on both speakers), or is there a way to connect through the US1800 so that I can have one master volume?

Any help would be appreciated 👍

Edited January 18, 2017 by Basszilla

[gelfin]

Hi.

Just looked at the manual for the speakers and there doesn't seem to be a gain / volume control. So you would need a stereo pre-amp.

The Tascam US1800 is not suitable for this.

Connect T/T to CP1. Then CP1 to pre-amp and then to the speakers.

You can use a pre-amp with either balanced or single ended connections. Balance would be better if the cable runs are long, however a pre-amp with balanced outputs will cost
significantly more and may not have single end to balanced capabilities.

If you connect the CP1 direct to the speakers you will be playing at full volume and are likely to cause damage.


Manual for the speakers is here. https://www.adam-audio.com/content/uploads/2016/12/adam-audio-user-manual-A7-en-de.pdf

[radiophonic]

If the US1800 has RCA ins and outs, then yes. But if you do that, aren't you digitising then reconverting the analog signal prior to the power amps? You'd also need a computer and the interface powered up when playing records, which seems a bit of a waste of energy too. If I were you I would spend a fairy tiny amount of money on a simple passive line stage - basically a decent pot and a pair of RCA inputs and outputs and use that between the CP1 and the Adams.

Reading the post that beat me to it, you will need a preamp. However unless you are running many meters of cable I wouldn't worry about the length of the runs at line level - I have 5m interconnects from my phono stage to a passive pre and I can detect zero difference between them and 30cm runs. Without going into nerd levels of detail, my speakers would reproduce any differences that were there.

Edited January 18, 2017 by radiophonic

[Rocker]

Not familiar with the CA preamp but be aware that you need a phono stage before the preamp if the preamp does not have a phono stage built in. And most modern preamps do not have a built in phono stage. You can get a standalone phono stage for smallish money but this is one situation where the more you spend, the better the sound. Also get a wall mounted shelf for the turntable - securely fitted to the wall if you don't want a very costly crash to happen. Get the shelf absolutely level, front to back and side to side and you are good to go.

[tedmanzie]

You connect as suggested in the original post - turntable into cp1 > cp1 into Adams speakers via unbalanced input using standard phono cables > use the volume knobs on the front of the speakers to adjust volume individually for left/right. Ignore the Tascam, it's irrelevant.

If you want a single volume control then you'll need a preamp. This could be a hifi type preamp or a dj mixer.

Do you know how to set tracking weight on your turntable?

Edited January 18, 2017 by tedmanzie

[HowieBass]

As suggested run the turntable into the phono preamp then straight to the A7 speakers. If you decide to get a stereo amplifier some time in the future you don't need one with a phono stage - you'll run the CP1 into a line level input (and definitely do not take the output from the CP1 into a phono input on a stereo amplifier). You'll need conventional, passive speakers if you decide to go the conventional home stereo route with a stereo amplifier. The turntable should come with instructions in how to set the tracking and anti-skate.

[Basszilla]

[quote name='gelfin' timestamp='1484773372' post='3218401']
Hi.

Just looked at the manual for the speakers and there doesn't seem to be a gain / volume control. So you would need a stereo pre-amp.

The Tascam US1800 is not suitable for this.

Connect T/T to CP1. Then CP1 to pre-amp and then to the speakers.

You can use a pre-amp with either balanced or single ended connections. Balance would be better if the cable runs are long, however a pre-amp with balanced outputs will cost
significantly more and may not have single end to balanced capabilities.

If you connect the CP1 direct to the speakers you will be playing at full volume and are likely to cause damage.


Manual for the speakers is here. https://www.adam-audio.com/content/uploads/2016/12/adam-audio-user-manual-A7-en-de.pdf
[/quote]

Thanks for the info mate

[Basszilla]

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1484773847' post='3218405']
If the US1800 has RCA ins and outs, then yes. But if you do that, aren't you digitising then reconverting the analog signal prior to the power amps? You'd also need a computer and the interface powered up when playing records, which seems a bit of a waste of energy too. If I were you I would spend a fairy tiny amount of money on a simple passive line stage - basically a decent pot and a pair of RCA inputs and outputs and use that between the CP1 and the Adams.

Reading the post that beat me to it, you will need a preamp. However unless you are running many meters of cable I wouldn't worry about the length of the runs at line level - I have 5m interconnects from my phono stage to a passive pre and I can detect zero difference between them and 30cm runs. Without going into nerd levels of detail, my speakers would reproduce any differences that were there.
[/quote]

Thanks for the help. Can you recommend a decent pot fit for purpose to put between the CP1 and speakers?

[Basszilla]

[quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1484779960' post='3218483']
You connect as suggested in the original post - turntable into cp1 > cp1 into Adams speakers via unbalanced input using standard phono cables > use the volume knobs on the front of the speakers to adjust volume individually for left/right. Ignore the Tascam, it's irrelevant.

If you want a single volume control then you'll need a preamp. This could be a hifi type preamp or a dj mixer.

Do you know how to set tracking weight on your turntable?
[/quote]

Yes there's a video on YouTube which goes through the set up in detail so I spent a bit of time watching that and going through each stage of the setup.

[Basszilla]

[quote name='HowieBass' timestamp='1484785305' post='3218517']
As suggested run the turntable into the phono preamp then straight to the A7 speakers. If you decide to get a stereo amplifier some time in the future you don't need one with a phono stage - you'll run the CP1 into a line level input (and definitely do not take the output from the CP1 into a phono input on a stereo amplifier). You'll need conventional, passive speakers if you decide to go the conventional home stereo route with a stereo amplifier. The turntable should come with instructions in how to set the tracking and anti-skate.
[/quote]

Thanks a lot. I spent a few hours scratching my head and eventually getting it working by going straight into the Adams from the CP1.

[Basszilla]

So yeah I got it working but i've still got the inconvenience of adjusting two volume knobs on the speakers and not having a single control to do this.

I may have to bite the bullet and go the traditional route and invest in a separate amp and passive speakers to get the best out of my set up.

However I'm interested in getting a decent pot as mentioned above purely to save on the outlay at this time. If anyone has any further advice feel free to chime in 👍

Thanks again everyone ✌️

[Basszilla]

[quote name='Rocker' timestamp='1484779405' post='3218477']
Not familiar with the CA preamp but be aware that you need a phono stage before the preamp if the preamp does not have a phono stage built in. And most modern preamps do not have a built in phono stage. You can get a standalone phono stage for smallish money but this is one situation where the more you spend, the better the sound. Also get a wall mounted shelf for the turntable - securely fitted to the wall if you don't want a very costly crash to happen. Get the shelf absolutely level, front to back and side to side and you are good to go.
[/quote]

Forgot to reply to you.. The CP1 is a phono stage. I've got the TT set up on my desk upstairs in my music room out of harm's way. Luckily for me the desk is perfectly flat after checking with a spirit level prior to set up. Cheers mate 👍

[SpondonBassed]

Connect thus;

Turntable - phono preamp - line in on amp (in this case the unbalanced RCA on your active speakers). This should be a purely analogue set-up so the Tascam is a bit of a gooseberry. If you want to do ADDA conversions take a separate line out to the Tascam after the phono preamp. As soon as you digitise your phono signal you will loose its character and you may as well chuck the money you spent down the nearest bog. The Tascam is an impediment to pure analogue listening.. Follow each manufacturers recommendations for set-up bearing in mind that they are only guidelines.

Overall, I'd say you have a reasonably capable system for playing from vinyl. One change that I would make is to replace the speakers with a dedicated integrated stereo amplifier just for analogue use and a pair of good quality passive speakers. Then you can add other "goodies" like tape transports (for playback and recording) and tuners[color=#ff0000]*[/color]. Also, get good quality cables and end fittings. I used to make my own but you should get decent ones at a moderate price.

Separates are usually better (more flexible) if you can afford them. With integrated systems such as active speakers there is always a compromise. Much like the Combo vs Head plus Cab scenario.

[color=#ff0000]*[/color]Chances are that FM radio transmissions will be phased out one day. This has been threatened time and time again since the nineties but analogue radio still hasn't been shut down. Personally, I prefer it to DAB but then, I would.

Edited January 19, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Basszilla' timestamp='1484805702' post='3218546']
So yeah I got it working but i've still got the inconvenience of adjusting two volume knobs on the speakers and not having a single control to do this.

I may have to bite the bullet and go the traditional route and invest in a separate amp and passive speakers to get the best out of my set up.

[b]However I'm interested in getting a decent pot as mentioned above purely to save on the outlay at this time. If anyone has any further advice[/b] feel free to chime in ��

Thanks again everyone ✌️
[/quote]

Good man! Separates are always the way to go. The ultimate separation being;[list]
[*]turntable
[*]phono preamp (make sure you know what preamp works best for the cartridge you have - ceramic vs moving coil vs moving magnet)
[*]dedicated preamp for all sources (balance, eq and filtering is applied at this stage)
[*]two independently powered valve power amps - usually available as a unit with a common output volume control
[*]speakers.
[/list]
The only drawback (apart from expense and large "footprint") that I can see is that separates based systems lend themselves to upgrading in small increments and that can lead to the dreaded GAS.

[url="http://www.rfpotts.com/en/"]http://www.rfpotts.com/en/[/url]
(R F Potts is the name of the founder of the business and not a pun. The shop is "old school" in the best possible way but is digital savvy too).

These guys run a shop in Derby that is reminiscent of "proper" shops where [i]nobody[/i] says "go online" when asked a technical question. All the staff are knowledgeable. It would be worth telephoning them for some "real-time" advice and [b]they will recommend an inexpensive but functional trimmer box if you really want one.[/b] Can't see why you would though.

I hope it connects well for you and blows your socks off, metaphorically speaking. Enjoy.

Edited January 19, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[radiophonic]

[quote name='Rocker' timestamp='1484779405' post='3218477']
Not familiar with the CA preamp but be aware that you need a phono stage before the preamp if the preamp does not have a phono stage built in. And most modern preamps do not have a built in phono stage. You can get a standalone phono stage for smallish money but this is one situation where the more you spend, the better the sound. Also get a wall mounted shelf for the turntable - securely fitted to the wall if you don't want a very costly crash to happen. Get the shelf absolutely level, front to back and side to side and you are good to go.
[/quote]

The CA is a phono stage rather than a pre-amp as most people understand it. What he doesn't have is any attenuation by the look of it. +1 for getting everything level / isolated from footfall.

[tedmanzie]

A [i]decent[/i] preamp to go between speakers and CP1 would be this:
https://www.henleydesigns.co.uk/Pre-Box-p460
Project Pre Box S at £200

Which also has another input for CD / IPod etc if you want.
And it's small.
And black.













Or silver.

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='Basszilla' timestamp='1484805702' post='3218546']
I may have to bite the bullet and go the traditional route and invest in a separate amp and passive speakers to get the best out of my set up.
[/quote]

You don't need to do that, just sort out a pre-amp, those speakers are supposed to be good, plus you have eq controls on the rear for fine tweaking due to placement etc.

[Basszilla]

Cheers everyone. Super helpful info 👍

Lots of info to digest here. I will have a proper read after work in a couple of hours and see what's what. If I have any further newbie questions I will fire away later 😂

Ted - so that pre would sit after the CP1 and before the speakers yeah? Is that a master volume dial? Another question...What other options would I have with an extra £100 or so and would it make a great deal of difference soundwise as you upgrade the pre?

Thanks again

Tim

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1484773847' post='3218405']
If the US1800 has RCA ins and outs, then yes. But if you do that, aren't you digitising then reconverting the analog signal prior to the power amps?
[/quote]

According to schematic in the manual the monitor out is a pure analogue signal path from the inputs (ditto for the headphone output) so in theory it can be used as an analogue preamp/mixer. Is a bit fiddly though as it has no analogue rca inputs - youd need 1/4 jack (*) or mic plug adaptors but it would allow to consolidate both the phono source and digital sources (computer) into a single connection to your speakers.

(*) this would be my recommendation - you could use two mono phono->jack adaptors (or buy a 2-way phono->jack cable from say maplin) and plug them into the rear jack inputs. So you got turntable -> CP1 -> rear jacks on tascam -> monitor out put to speakers

Edited January 19, 2017 by bassman7755

[tedmanzie]

[quote name='Basszilla' timestamp='1484830244' post='3218843']
Ted - so that pre would sit after the CP1 and before the speakers yeah? Is that a master volume dial? Another question...What other options would I have with an extra £100 or so and would it make a great deal of difference soundwise as you upgrade the pre?

[/quote]

That's correct, and yes that is a master volume dial. That Project pre is supposed to be good and for £200ish seems to fit in the price range of the other gear. You can of course go nuts on any item of hifi, but that is a good range to be at - expensive enough to be out of the budget range. I haven't really looked much, I remembered Project were doing a nice range of small items, but there will be others out there...!

As bassman7755 has identified, the Tascam does have line inputs on the rear and a single stereo monitor volume so you could easily use that, or at least give it a whirl!

[HowieBass]

By the way, regarding setting up the turntable, and anti-skate in particular, I've got a Project Debut III SE turntable and I've taken off the fiddly weight on a fishing line so there's no anti-skate force being applied. There's a lot of information about the subject online but I've followed this bit of advice:

1: Set the anti-skate to the same force as the tracking force.

2. Set the arm down in the middle of the record, and sight straight on at the cartridge, so you can see the cantilever. If the bottom of the cantilever points toward the centre of the record, the anti-skate force is too high. If it points to the outside, the anti-skate force is too low. If it appears to be at a 90 degree angle to the record, it's nominally correct.

3. Play the last band on a known good pressing and listen for distortion on the high levels. If you hear distortion or the highs sound mushy, increase the anti-skate force slightly. At the centre of the record the angular velocity of the arm increases and more anti-skate may be needed.

With no weight hanging off the anti-skate arm the cantilever stays nicely central right across the width of a record for me. I'd previously seen the cantilever aiming inwards when I had the anti-skate set at the minimum setting available (first groove on the arm). Ideally you'd use a test record and take the output to an oscilloscope to check (that left and right channels are equally matched) but my eyes (and ears) are telling me to leave the weight off.

[Coilte]

This thread has got me reaching for my old JVC turntable and setting it up, in order to play my large collection of vinyl again.

BTW....while doing some research for a new stylus, I came across a site which had accessaries for... a record player... and a turntable.

It got me thinking...what's the difference ?

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1484906217' post='3219511']
This thread has got me reaching for my old JVC turntable and setting it up, in order to play my large collection of vinyl again.

BTW....while doing some research for a new stylus, I came across a site which had accessaries for... a record player... and a turntable.

It got me thinking...what's the difference ?
[/quote]

I believe the record player is a self contained unit like the Dansette that James May just assembled on t'telly recently;

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nMHhLidGVU[/media]

The turntable has no amplifier or speakers of its own.

Edited January 20, 2017 by SpondonBassed