markstuk Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1485127145' post='3221466'] I don't think anyone is disputing this. Try working in a building with 10,000 people and then tell me that the only faults you get are from dodgily wired plugs. People try to smuggle in all sorts of gear from home, it's frightening the state some of it is in. [/quote] I don't I am saying that the only faults come from badly wired plugs (although interesting to note that it was legislation AFAIK that required plugs to be fitted to appliances) If PA testing was a regulated activity with a consistent approach to testing I would be less anti the paperwork shuffle, but the guys advertising PA testing for 80p a device are not doing it properly (if at all) At the moment it's a mess.. And in the case of the OP I would imagine he's perfectly happy with the electrical safety of his equipment.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 22, 2017 Share Posted January 22, 2017 (edited) Fans with the case cracked exposing internal unshielded bare terminals. Hairdryer with a damaged lead and a food mixer with a damaged cable in a kitchen. That's just three examples I have seen. Cables get damaged, cases get cracked, If someone got a shock or there was a fire, someone is going to ask when was the last time a competent person looked at it. If you look at these things annually then they won't sit around for 5 years waiting for the accident to happen, with more and more failures building up. . Edited January 24, 2017 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alyctes Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='grandad' timestamp='1485097773' post='3221073'] If you are going out and working and taking money in return for your services then it is wise to adopt a professional approach. That means ensuring your equipment is safe. Safe to use for you and your band members, and safe for the customer/public who may come into contact with it, e.g. hold a microphone. I remember when PAT testing, (which has been around certainly since the 1960's), was brought to prominent attention in the workplace in the eighties. I won't recount the numerous horror stories that I and others found but suffice to say don't take chances, life is too precious. The best way to comply with HS legislation is to regularly PAT test all your equipment and keep records. I may sound like a boring old fart but I'm still alive after spending a life-time working on and with electrical/electronic equipment, and to my knowledge I haven't killed anyone through negligence. And none of my students should have either. Accidental death by electrocution is preventable, so help prevent it. Here endeth the sermon. Amen. [/quote] Completely agree. The first time I ever PAT tested anything I found a four-socket extension lead which would have burnt the building down sooner or later. "Oh I was going to get that looked at..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1485122873' post='3221417'] Is this instance there is no legal definition of PA testing and the stickers have no meaning in any legal sense.. it's nothing like a certificate of motor insurance.. No one is suggesting that electrcal equipment should not be safe, just deriding the whole concept of PA testing in this country. Read the HSE notes linked above. My somewhat cynical take on the PA testing "industry" comes from explaining to electrical contractors that it's not "the law". [/quote] Why do you feel the need to explain it to electrical contractors? They will be asked to carry out the tests because the company requires it possibly as part of their insurance requirements which will be law. How on earth can anyone prove that they had done a responsible job of making sure their equipment is as safe as possible without some kind of paper trail should something happen, it might not be law but I'm certain I'd look responsible in court when I provided the band's PLI certificate, PAT test records for the last three years and photos of the stage area showing taped down cables and hazard taped legs on protruding stands from every gig. What more can you do? That takes almost no effort or cost either as we need the pli and PAT tests for some venues, it was taken from our NYE gig money to cover all this year and I always take a photo of the stage once set up anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 It's not what the OP wanted to know anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1485162788' post='3221548'] Why do you feel the need to explain it to electrical contractors? They will be asked to carry out the tests because the company requires it possibly as part of their insurance requirements which will be law. [/quote] Because they're selling it as an addon service (revenue generation) - which is fine.. However I take exception to being lied to. Are you seriously trying to suggest that whenever electrical work is done, there is a requirement to PA test everything in a building? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1485163784' post='3221559'] Because they're selling it as an addon service (revenue generation) - which is fine.. However I take exception to being lied to. Are you seriously trying to suggest that whenever electrical work is done, there is a requirement to PA test everything in a building? [/quote] You're employing the wrong contractors then. And nowhere in your posts have you mentioned this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) [quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1485163784' post='3221559'] Because they're selling it as an addon service (revenue generation) - which is fine.. However I take exception to being lied to. Are you seriously trying to suggest that whenever electrical work is done, there is a requirement to PA test everything in a building? [/quote] I've never suggested it after carrying out work, I hate doing it for a start! We haven't got time to be touting for it either, have you tried getting an electrician or plumber etc lately? Edited January 23, 2017 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1485165060' post='3221581'] You're employing the wrong contractors then. And nowhere in your posts have you mentioned this. [/quote] Strangely enough, they're never the ones that get the job. But clearly it's a tactic that works elsewhere... I have to get three quotes for any work done, so I get to see a lot of contractors.. We have a PA tester (Fluke) at work, and routinely test any devices that come in from the field with issues.. I'm not against the idea of testing, I'm against the idea of going through the motions for the sake of a tick box and/or expecting that having being tested a device remains inherently safe until the next arbitrarily scheduled test date.. One of my big hobbies is aviation, and when we're teaching people how to do inspections the thing I most stress is "why are we doing this check?, what are the modes of failure? " rather than yeah yeah... Must and should are two entirely different concepts.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) Not everyone has the ability to carry out insulation resistance tests or earth continuity confirmation just by looking at stuff that "comes in from the field with issues", I think it's probably best to just check everything once a year and make a record of the date it was done along with details of who carried out the test, maybe pop a sticker on it to show anyone that operates it that it's been done and a handy reminder of when it next needs doing, if only there was such a service Edited January 23, 2017 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1485165755' post='3221597'] Strangely enough, they're never the ones that get the job. But clearly it's a tactic that works elsewhere... I have to get three quotes for any work done, so I get to see a lot of contractors.. We have a PA tester (Fluke) at work, and routinely test any devices that come in from the field with issues.. I'm not against the idea of testing, I'm against the idea of going through the motions for the sake of a tick box and/or expecting that having being tested a device remains inherently safe until the next arbitrarily scheduled test date.. One of my big hobbies is aviation, and when we're teaching people how to do inspections the thing I most stress is "why are we doing this check?, what are the modes of failure? " rather than yeah yeah... Must and should are two entirely different concepts.. [/quote] That's why in your building you should have a risk assessment covering different types of kit. So your PC leads you might check every two years as they don't move and are clipped behind desks away from people's feet. Your desk fans you'd check 6 monthly, before and after the summer. Etc etc. I think it's your understanding and implementation of the PAT test that is at fault not the PAT test itself. If you have a small building then you might as well just blanket test everything the same week so that it's easier to manage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spike Vincent Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='graham1945' timestamp='1485081123' post='3220903'] Need public liability insurance too! Graham [/quote] You should have this anyway . Comes with Musicians Union membership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markstuk Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1485166417' post='3221611'] That's why in your building you should have a risk assessment covering different types of kit. So your PC leads you might check every two years as they don't move and are clipped behind desks away from people's feet. Your desk fans you'd check 6 monthly, before and after the summer. Etc etc. I think it's your understanding and implementation of the PAT test that is at fault not the PAT test itself. If you have a small building then you might as well just blanket test everything the same week so that it's easier to manage. [/quote] No. my issue is not with the concept of PA testing. My issue is with the way it's "marketed"... And sadly, I know all about doing risk assessments, and trying to stress to people not to do them in a formulaic way.. Thorough and formulaic are not the same thing.. However to repeat myself - the OP appears perfectly happy with the electrical safety of his equipment, and having a sticker put on his extension leads (by a "real" tester") won't make them safe for the next gig. His requirement to have his gear PA tested comes from the venue.. I always use RCDs myself anyway, not that they're foolproof, but they're better than nothing and can be tested easily.. . I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about the way the industry appears to present PA testing to clients... Edited January 23, 2017 by markstuk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'm entirely with markstuk on this one. The whole scheme is flaky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Cool by me, leaves the well paying gigs for those that have paid the £30 to get it done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1485168197' post='3221633'] Cool by me, leaves the well paying gigs for those that have paid the £30 to get it done [/quote] I've gigged for 30 years all over the place. I've only been challenged for PAT evidence once: by a health and safety guy at a festival... who, by coincidence, happened to be a full-time PAT test guy. I raised an eyebrow at him, and he never mentioned it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 I'll just copy and type that out and put that in our gig folder then We've got at least six gigs this year already planned that require proof, one venue is just a bog standard pub £300 gig. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wateroftyne Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1485169562' post='3221654'] I'll just copy and type that out and put that in our gig folder then We've got at least six gigs this year already planned that require proof, one venue is just a bog standard pub £300 gig. [/quote] I can only speak as I find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 [quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1485167745' post='3221626'] No. my issue is not with the concept of PA testing. My issue is with the way it's "marketed"... And sadly, I know all about doing risk assessments, and trying to stress to people not to do them in a formulaic way.. Thorough and formulaic are not the same thing.. However to repeat myself - the OP appears perfectly happy with the electrical safety of his equipment, and having a sticker put on his extension leads (by a "real" tester") won't make them safe for the next gig. His requirement to have his gear PA tested comes from the venue.. I always use RCDs myself anyway, not that they're foolproof, but they're better than nothing and can be tested easily.. . I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about the way the industry appears to present PA testing to clients... [/quote] The whole world is full of people using fear to market their product. It's down to the consumer to make sure he is not being ripped off and if you find sharp practices then you should be reporting them to their trade body. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) I've worked with many engineers of all disciplines over 40yr career in engineering and found that not everyone takes routine checking as seriously as everyone else. The advantage of PAT testing for me as a Manager was that it provided proof for audits that the routine inspections were being completed correctly and that we had the evidence to back it up. The audits were either by HSE, Insurance companies or internal engineering audits. That may percieved as being just a tick in the box but at the end of the day routine checks were actually done and not made up as i have found in industry where jobs were written up as completed but not actually done. (yes that does happen where engineers are too lazy to do the work) Years ago i would find plugs with earths disconnected or loose. I have come across plugs with 3 cores clamped rather than the sheath. All of these were fitted by people that were regarded as competent. For me being the person on the firing line at audits it was an easy way to show we were taking things seriously and believed in a safety first culture. I do appreciate that mental attitude to safety has improved over the years and maybe PAT testing just helped us get there. Its not perfect but it helped reduce accidents in the workplace. A visual examination if carried out correctly would have captured many of the issues tho. I don't know the intricasies of PAT testing and i'm not sure how it works but assuming its a form of megger test to check insulation. 1. How does it check continuity of cabling ie how do you know your earth cable is actually connected inside the unit ie amp in this case. ? 2. With regards my own personal equipment i check a cable with a multimeter and check earth to amp casing. I think perhaps buying a small PAT tester might be very handy. Dave Edited January 23, 2017 by dmccombe7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 (edited) That's it, for class 1 earthed kit the machine attaches via a fly lead to some exposed casing, obviously you need to test the earth on the (kettle ) lead first. The insulation resistance test is as you say a megger test but I'm sure TimR will be along to explain that megger is a test instrument brand but we all know what you mean Edited January 23, 2017 by stingrayPete1977 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 The first part of the test is a visual inspection. You don't use any instruments if there is obvious physical damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Electricians still call a Fluke insulation tester a Megger and yep i can remember when they were huge bix wooden boxes. Think we still have ours in the substation altho its for HV only. Its the flying lead part i was missing and that explains it all. Cheers Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 Funily enough all our younger lads call the Megger a Fluke now even if it's a Robin! I'm off to do the Hoovering.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blink Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 If you are asked for PAT certificate make sure you ask for a copy of the venues 5 yearly fixed wiring installation certificate. It's no good having the best equipment if the circuit you are plugging in to is dodgy. If you buy good equipment and look after it in proper flight cases etc Please get it insured. If you use a company like Musicguard then you get £1m Public liability insurance thrown in, and it can be extended to cover other band members at an additional cost. Makes sense doesn't it...... N Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.