hiram.k.hackenbacker Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 I appreciate that this could potentially open a rather large can of worms, but I have a genuine reason for asking. I've looked at the new CITES Regs and unless I'm misinterpreting them (as I don't have a Biology degree) I don't see anything [b]new[/b] in respect of Ebony. So, if I had a bass on order that had the spec below, should it be unnecessarily delayed due to the new regs, or would have it always have been delayed because of the existing regs or have the new regs had an effect on all CITES related wood for export? [list] [*]Size: 13-1/2" wide, 1-5/8" thick, 44-7/8" long (34.3 cm wide, 4.1 cm thick, 114.0 cm long) [*]Weight: 9 lbs, 5 oz (4.22 kg) - varies slightly [*]Body Wood: Select hardwood [*]Body Finish: High gloss polyester [*]Bridge: Standard - Music Man® chrome plated, hardened steel bridge plate with stainless steel saddles [*]Pickguard: Standard - Black [*]Scale Length: 34" (86.4 cm) [*]Neck Radius: 11" (27.9 cm) [*]Headstock Size: Only 8-3/4" (22.2 cm) long [*]Headstock Finish: Matching [*]Frets: Satinless Steel 21 - High profile, wide [*]Neck Width: 1-5/8" (41.3 mm) at nut 2-1/2" (63.5 mm) at last fret [*]Neck Wood: Figured, roasted maple neck [*]Fingerboard: Fretted - Unmarked Ebony [*]Neck Finish: Gunstock oil and wax [*]Tuning Machines: Schaller BM, with tapered string posts [*]Truss Rod: Adjustable - no component or string removal [*]Neck Attachment: 6 bolts - perfect alignment with no shifting [*]Electronic Shielding:Graphite acrylic resin coated body cavity and chrome plated brass control cover [*]Controls: Single Pickup, 3-band active preamp; vol, treble, mid, bass [*]Single Pickup - N/A; Dual Pickup - 5-way lever pickup selector [*]Pickups: Standard - Music Man® humbucking with Alnico magnets [*]Strings:45w-65w-80w-100w (Super Slinky Bass #2834) [*]Hard Case [/list] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 Warren, Manton Customs posted this in another thread "Yes, CITES have introduced new legislation protecting all Rosewood species. Meaning if you now sell a guitar or bass with a Rosewood fretboard outside the EU, or across states if you're in America you'll need to apply for a permit. Buying a bass within the U.K./EU will remain the same. I believe one of the reasons they did this was to protect Brazilian Rosewood (approaching extinction) as Indian Rosewood (the species most fretboards are made of these days) is actually very sustainable and one of the worlds most planted trees. They grow quickly too. But rather than further protect Brazilian Rosewood (which was already restricted) they have covered all species, as I suppose one species was being passed off as the other. I hope we will not see a great increase in the use of Ebony, as this is currently way more endangered than Indian Rosewood ever will be. So if that happens they will introduce restrictions on Ebony also. I doubt instruments with Rosewood fretboards will become any more sought after...possibly the opposite. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiram.k.hackenbacker Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 OK - Understood and thank you for that. It's just there has been a delay with the above bass and the reason given was the CITES Regs in respect of Rosewood of which there doesn't appear to be any on this bass. The fingerboard is Ebony. The only other wood type that isn't specifically mentioned is that of the body, for which it says "select hardwood", which I can't imagine would be Rosewood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) Perhaps a rock and a hard place. You are well experienced in the ways of custom luthiers I believe . Even Ernie Ball's. Perhaps they are running behind and are being a little disingenuous. Might be time for a diplomatically phrased get yer fingers out. Edited January 24, 2017 by karlfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1485296466' post='3222959'] OK - Understood and thank you for that. It's just there has been a delay with the above bass and the reason given was the CITES Regs in respect of Rosewood of which there doesn't appear to be any on this bass. The fingerboard is Ebony. The only other wood type that isn't specifically mentioned is that of the body, for which it says "select hardwood", which I can't imagine would be Rosewood. [/quote] I'd imagine it is more that the ruling has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works at MusicMan. Lots more paperwork to clear all the rosewood boards on other basses that are possibly ahead of yours on the production schedule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1485296840' post='3222964'] I'd imagine it is more that the ruling has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works at MusicMan. Lots more paperwork to clear all the rosewood boards on other basses that are possibly ahead of yours on the production schedule. [/quote] Quite possibly, but it would be nice that if that was the case, they informed individual customers of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 [quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1485297193' post='3222972'] Quite possibly, but it would be nice that if that was the case, they informed individual customers of that. [/quote] Yep. They were hit and miss with supply and customer service 10 or so years ago when I was a MM dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiram.k.hackenbacker Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 [quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1485296840' post='3222964'] I'd imagine it is more that the ruling has thrown a bit of a spanner in the works at MusicMan. Lots more paperwork to clear all the rosewood boards on other basses that are possibly ahead of yours on the production schedule. [/quote] I've been given to understand that ZERO PDN Starry Night instruments have been shipped into the UK directly from EBMM. Should make the next wave of instruments interesting as their order window opens in the first week of March! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 (edited) See, I'd be getting a bit, erm, twisty tbh. Not being nosy, but given current MM prices I would guess this particular bass is at least north of £2k. I am also sure that MM would have been aware of the updated CITES regs long before they came into force . If so, doesn't really reflect well on their planning or customer care. No particular axe to grind, but being in service industries all my life, this kind of performance bugs me. Edited January 24, 2017 by karlfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiram.k.hackenbacker Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 [quote name='karlfer' timestamp='1485298053' post='3222993'] See, I'd be getting a bit, erm, twisty tbh. Not being nosy, but given current MM prices I would guess this particular bass is at least north of £2k. I am also sure that MM would have been aware of the updated CITES regs long before they came into force . If so, doesn't really reflect well on their planning or customer care. No particular axe to grind, but being in service industries all my life, this kind of performance bugs me. [/quote] I'm not that bothered to be fair, it's just the reasoning behind it that confused me a little. I would much rather I had to wait a bit longer and for it to be 100% straight. Of course there are no guarantees that this will be the case, but fingers crossed. The dealership has been very good thus far and they are only relaying what they have been told by the manufacturer and/or their UK representatives, so I can't blame them. By the way, if anyone is looking at buying one of these: ....you better have in the region of [b]£2,800[/b] in your sky rocket. (and if you do, it might be an idea to order the maple neck variant) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiram.k.hackenbacker Posted January 24, 2017 Author Share Posted January 24, 2017 Correction - maple fingerboard - before the pedants arrive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlfer Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1485299127' post='3223009'] Correction - maple fingerboard - before the pedants arrive [/quote] Bugger!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodney72a Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]While all this wasn't introduced primarily with an eye on the guitar industry, it still means that there will be potential implications on buying, selling or travelling with any instrument containing rosewood. [/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]The approach seems to vary from country to country though. There was an article in a German guitar magazine in December which strongly recommended to register all instruments containing rosewood before 1 January 2017 with the authorities. It pointed out that ownership is still perfectly legal - as is using those instruments in concerts, shows etc - but when selling an instrument the seller has to provide proof/documentation that the guitar was already in the EU before 1 January 2017. [/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]To get clarification, I rang the CITES people at the Department for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs a few weeks ago. I was told that - while the regulations equally apply to all ratifying countries - the approach on how they are implemented in practice does vary. Some countries like Germany, USA and Canada were set on 'regulation', whereas the approach in the UK was one of 'deregulation'.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]Furthermore, I was told that in the UK there is no need to register instruments. Also, if I understood correctly, they can still be traded by private sellers without the need for additional paperwork, at least for the time being. [/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]It gets a bit more tricky when travelling with an instrument. You should still be OK within the EU if it's for 'non-commercial purposes'. (Apparently that includes using the instrument for a show or concert.) When travelling outside the EU, I was told you should be covered if the overall weight of the rosewood in the instruments doesn't exceed 10kg. However, I was advised to apply for a permit, since there is some uncertainty over how custom officials in various countries are going to handle this.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]I was also told that of course no one knows at this stage how Brexit will affect any of this. [/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]I think - to be on the safe side - when buying a guitar or bass, it's advisable to ask the seller for some sort of documentation showing that the instrument had already been in the UK/EU before 1 January 2017. When buying new stuff, you should definitely expect a dealer or manufacturer to provide the relevant certificates.[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]Overall, there seems to be a fair bit of uncertainty about how the new regulations are going to be implemented. One of the CITES persons I spoke to mentioned a meeting in mid-January in order to clarify some of the issues, for example travelling with musical instruments for 'non-commercial purposes' etc. [/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]I was advised to submit any questions in writing towards the end of the months to get an official position. [/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,]Here are some links I found useful:[/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,][url="https://cites.org/eng/disc/how.php"]How CITES works | CITES[/url][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,][url="https://reverb.com/news/new-cites-regulations-for-all-rosewood-species?utm_campaign=eb4a3636e7-rn161209_content&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&utm_term=0_5889ed6702-eb4a3636e7-57057585"]New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species[/url][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=HelveticaNeue,][url="http://sadowsky.com/a-note-on-the-export-of-instruments-containing-rosewood/"]A Note on the Export of Instruments Containing Rosewood – Sadowsky Guitars[/url][/font][/color] [color=#000000][size=3] [/size][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodney72a Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1485299042' post='3223007'] By the way, if anyone is looking at buying one of these: ....you better have in the region of [b]£2,800[/b] in your sky rocket. (and if you do, it might be an idea to order the maple neck variant) [/quote] Like this, you mean? (Not mine, I should add - these are from a friend who was at NAMM.) [url="http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/72arodney/media/IMG_1917_zpsjcfttzac.jpeg.html"][/url] [url="http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/72arodney/media/IMG_1918_zpsirqoxtre.jpeg.html"][/url] [url="http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/72arodney/media/IMG_1919_zpsbfeqbuhi.jpeg.html"][/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drTStingray Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) [quote name='rodney72a' timestamp='1485307598' post='3223054'] Like this, you mean? (Not mine, I should add - these are from a friend who was at NAMM.) [url="http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/72arodney/media/IMG_1917_zpsjcfttzac.jpeg.html"][/url] [url="http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/72arodney/media/IMG_1918_zpsirqoxtre.jpeg.html"][/url] [url="http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/72arodney/media/IMG_1919_zpsbfeqbuhi.jpeg.html"][/url] [/quote] My lord that is an awesome looking bass 👍 But how does the new price compare to a post Brexit Fender Custom Shop bass price? On the question of Cites, I suspect all manufacturers are having a headache created by not only this but the situation with the new Commander in Chief's plans for the US which would appear to the onlooker to affect most instrument manufacturer's current business models.....no doubt all of these changes (including the changes here with the EU) will create a significant period of turbulence ...... and possibly even bigger prices. I hope you get your Starry Night bass soon. Edited January 25, 2017 by drTStingray Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiram.k.hackenbacker Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 [quote name='rodney72a' timestamp='1485307598' post='3223054'] Like this, you mean? (Not mine, I should add - these are from a friend who was at NAMM.) [url="http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/72arodney/media/IMG_1919_zpsbfeqbuhi.jpeg.html"][/url] [/quote] Yes, that's the one. It's a stunner IMHO. Action looks a little on the high side though. Having said that, I've just found this at Bass Central which looks very sexy.... http://store.basscentral.info/ernie-ball-musicman-sting-ray-5-string-bass-limited-single-h-starry-night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodney72a Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1485389915' post='3223699'] Yes, that's the one. It's a stunner IMHO. Action looks a little on the high side though. Having said that, I've just found this at Bass Central which looks very sexy.... [url="http://store.basscentral.info/ernie-ball-musicman-sting-ray-5-string-bass-limited-single-h-starry-night"]http://store.basscen...-h-starry-night[/url] [/quote] Tasty but they usually don't sell EBMM instruments to overseas customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiram.k.hackenbacker Posted January 26, 2017 Author Share Posted January 26, 2017 [quote name='rodney72a' timestamp='1485456941' post='3224139'] Tasty but they usually don't sell EBMM instruments to overseas customers. [/quote] Quite right. I would have to go and get it 😀 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
last-ninja Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 (edited) Hi folks, I'm overseas in New Zealand and have been looking at getting a new bass from the UK or USA, but because of the CITES changes, I'm not entirely certain of the extent to which the UK is taking in terms of customs processing etc. I know this is a bigger issue in USA, and they are already starting to crack down on private sellers etc, but I'm not sure if this is as heavy outside of America. I'd love to get my hands on something with a nice rosewood board, but I'm thinking, for safety sake, I'm probably better off cutting my losses and going for something with maple (like maybe a sweet f bass) Trouble is, I'm still note sure if CITES is enforced there too. I know maple or ash etc, do not fall under the convention, but are you required to have certification for ALL instruments now? I only ask, because I have a feeling customs might start generalising for the sake of paperwork or because they can't recognise a wood species. I hope it's not the case, while it's important to lessen the impact we have on the planet in terms of deforestation, I'm not too fond of getting dragged back into the dark ages of instrument buying, where some smaller countries were limited by supply etc. Anyone have any advice? Edited February 26, 2017 by last-ninja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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