HELP capturing a wedge monitor signal for use in IEM - would this work?

[mcnach]

I'm slowly trying to make a transition towards IEM, and in the immediate future it would be wired for me due to budget constraints and the fact that I need to understand more about wireless units before I feel I can choose.

I recently saw this thing called a "Sound Tap" by Ultimate Ears.

[url="http://stories.ultimateears.com/?p=763"]http://stories.ultimateears.com/?p=763[/url]

and video:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUasZpMINt8[/media]

What I liked about that was that it allows you to capture the mix being sent to a wedge, by putting that little box in between, so that the wedge still gets the signal but you tap into it and use it for your earphones.
What I didn't like was that you cannot add/mix a signal to it, as I'd like to be able to control my bass level on it, unless you use some external mixer, and if I'm going to do that I surely don't need the Sound Tap but I can get a cheaper simpler device.

Right now my initial setup will be based around a small Behringer UB1002 mixer I've got, with a couple of XLR/jack combo inputs and a few (8?) extra jack inputs. My bass will be fed into it from my OmniCabSim pedal (uneffected 'thru' to the main desk, effected out to the UB1002), and I may use the Zoom H2 mic unit for stage ambience. The output of the UB1002 will be fed into a Behringer P1 portable headphone amp attached to my person.

This alone *might* do a passable job. But I'd ideally like a mix from the main desk. Sometimes I'll be able to get that ok, but sometimes I won't. So being able to tap into a wedge signal is very attractive as there will always be one available relatively near me, and I can sort that out without requiring the sound guy to spend more time on me.

My question is how to do that.
I found some small units on Thomann that I think might do the job... but I am not sure this is what I want or whether I am missing some important detail, so I'd like to ask you if any of these would do what I want:

First there's this thing at £24, which takes one XLR and has a 'through' output XLR next to the input, and two output XLRs on the other side. It is passive, so just plug in and done. It says 'note: no phantom power' (is this anything I need to worry about? I don't think so but...).
[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_sp_31.htm"]https://www.thomann.de/gb/millenium_sp_31.htm[/url]

Then there's this ART Prosplit microphone splitter, at £40
I don't know whether the 'microphone' part matters... but this one has two XLR outputs that are not equivalent, however I do not understand if that makes any difference to me (check the labelling on the outputs in the image).
[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/art_prosplit.htm"]https://www.thomann.de/gb/art_prosplit.htm[/url]

Then there's the ART Splitcom Pro at £36.
It's got two XLR inputs and two outputs... and I really do not understand what's the significant difference between this and the Prosplit above, and there's the different labelling on the inputs/outputs whose meaning I'm not clear about...
[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/art_splitcompro.htm"]https://www.thomann.de/gb/art_splitcompro.htm[/url]

Would any of these be what I need? Or do you have any alternatives? The Millenium SP31 looks just right to me, but the 'no phantom power' makes me wonder... I imagine I just cannot use it to split two powered microphones or something, but that's not a use I will ever need, so I think I should be ok? I don't think the XLR to the wedges ever carry phantom power? (dunno).

If the SP31 is ok... I like the idea of getting two, so that I can capture two monitors and make a pseudo stereo mix for myself with them. For instance using the singer's monitor at the front, and the drummer's on my side... but that's not important now.

So, will the SP31 or any of the other units be what I'm looking for?

[TrevorR]

I think that the USP is that it can not only tap line level signals but also speaker level signals. So, if you have a PA monitoring system that that doesn't use powered monitors but sends speaker level monitor signals from a power amp then you can take an in-ear signal from that. If you're only ever talking about line level signals and looking to blend in extra bass then a mini-mixer of some sort is the (easier and cheaper) way to go.

[EBS_freak]

No phantom power is very important. If you are splitting a condenser between two desks (or accidentally have phantom power on - or if you desk has a global phantom power on/off for all channels), it's very important that you don't have two desks feeding phantom at the same time. The no phantom power on the first product tells me that the split is not isolated - meaning that you could achieve the same result with just a Y XLR cable. I wouldn't ever recommend a Y split.

An isolated split means that only one channel of the pair will ever pass phantom... therefore you run no risk of sending phantom from one desk to another... and there is less chance of crosstalk. You won't be very popular if you accidentally send phantom to a third party soundman's desk... so the isolation is a good move.

As Trevor says, the UE Sound Tap is not just a split, it will either allow you to tap into a line/mic level signal going to say, a powered monitor... but it will also let you tap into a powered feed to a passive monitor and bring that powered feed down to line level. I posted reference in the other thread to the Palmer PDI09 which does similar... as does the Kemper DI profiler box.

[mcnach]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1485341174' post='3223202']
No phantom power is very important. If you are splitting a condenser between two desks (or accidentally have phantom power on - or if you desk has a global phantom power on/off for all channels), it's very important that you don't have two desks feeding phantom at the same time. The no phantom power on the first product tells me that the split is not isolated - meaning that you could achieve the same result with just a Y XLR cable. I wouldn't ever recommend a Y split.

An isolated split means that only one channel of the pair will ever pass phantom... therefore you run no risk of sending phantom from one desk to another... and there is less chance of crosstalk. You won't be very popular if you accidentally send phantom to a third party soundman's desk... so the isolation is a good move.

As Trevor says, the UE Sound Tap is not just a split, it will either allow you to tap into a line/mic level signal going to say, a powered monitor... but it will also let you tap into a powered feed to a passive monitor and bring that powered feed down to line level. I posted reference in the other thread to the Palmer PDI09 which does similar... as does the Kemper DI profiler box.
[/quote]

Thank you for explaining that... as you probably realised I know very little about this side of things.

The SoundTap does more than I want, or not enough, depends how you look at it. If it allowed me to mix another signal in, then it'd be great. As it doesn't, I'll use a small mixer, so I just want the ability to take a line out or a speaker feed and split it.
I have paid so little attention to the monitors out there that I can't tell you what sort of connectors they generally have... I'm not sure I come across passive or active more often. The PA we use in my second band, that one uses passive wedges and speakon connectors. Looking online, I notice that all passive monitors appear to have speakon sockets, while active ones generally have an XLR female input (I saw a handful with and additional jack socket), and male XLR outputs (line/mic level switchable, or line and mic separately), and maybe some an additional jack socket line output.

So it turns out that, if I encounter active monitors, I just have to have an XLR cable at hand and connect their line-out to my mixer. Job done. If I only have passive monitors... then I need to find a way to tap into it and bring the speaker level signal down to line. I have absolutely no idea what I can use to achieve that... EXCEPT of course you've mentioned the Palmer DI09 unit.

[url="http://www.palmer-germany.com/mi/en/PDI-09-Passive-DI-Box-for-Guitars-PDI09.htm"]http://www.palmer-ge...itars-PDI09.htm[/url]

I saw you mentioned it in the other thread but I bookmarked it to look into it later... and later never happened. It does seem to do what I need, although I don't need any of the guitar speaker emulation, so I thought maybe there are other suitable boxes out there. The Palmer DI09 costs about £76 right now, which is not going to break the bank if it does the job. I found others that don't have so many whistles and might work too...

Would any of these other units below be particularly suitable or unsuitable to capture a passive monitor mix?
The plan would be:
I'd get the speakon cable that plugs into the monitor, and plug it into the DI box using a speakon-jack adaptor cable.
Then I'd pass the 'thru' signal back into the monitor with another jack-speakon cable.
I would then take the XLR line out output from the box and connect it to my little personal mixer behind me.

The [b]Palmer DI09[/b] looks like it should work. It costs £76, but it adds guitar speaker emulation that I don't need. Or... is maybe that speaker emulation what will make it sound tolerable in my earphones?

I found two cheap and cheerful units that on paper look like they might work... unless I really need the speaker emulation of the Palmer unit.

[b]1) Behringer Ultra-DI DI100 DI Box[/b]
[url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Behringer-Ultra-DI-DI100-DI-Box/dp/B000CCSWPQ/ref=pd_sbs_267_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=VMWT3SVAE56EFYRPSTSB"]https://www.amazon.c...SVAE56EFYRPSTSB[/url]
£33
It states it can take speaker level signal. I'm guessing the 'link' output is the same as 'thru'?
One thing worries me (in blue). It says:
[quote][u][b]Tapping a signal from a power amplifier output[/b][/u]
When no line out is available it is possible to connect an amplifier output directly to the DI100
(for example, recording direct from a guitar amplifier, TV-speaker, etc). It is possible to connect
the output, i.e an extra speaker output, of up to 3000 Watts to the ULTRA-DI without fear of
overloading. Pay attention to the two -20 dB buttons on the ULTRA-DI! Both must be depressed
if an amplifier output is connected to the DI100 input.

[color=#0000cd]Always make sure the ground lift is on (no ground link) when connecting to speaker
terminals. This prevents accidental short-circuiting of the amplifier output.
Also make sure the Tip of the input jack is connected to the red terminal and that
the metal housing of the DI100 has no contact with other equipment.[/color][/quote]

If there's any possibility whatsoever of my damaging the amplifier that powers the monitors, then I don't want to get anywhere close.

[b]2) Art X-Direct[/b]
[url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/ART-X-Direct-Active-Direct-Injection/dp/B0009GYIKS/ref=pd_sbs_267_8?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YAHA13ER32DA3Y551432"]https://www.amazon.c...3ER32DA3Y551432[/url]
£25
It clearly states it can take speaker level signals, it has a link output (which seems to be the same as 'thru'), and it's much like the Behringer above.
They make a dual unit (Dual XDirect twin channel) where the 'link' outputs are labelled as 'thru'...
There's also an Art Z-Direct... but I can't figure out what's the difference between the two units.
[url="https://www.amazon.co.uk/ART-Z-Direct-Passive-Direct-Injection/dp/B0009GYIL2/ref=pd_sbs_267_10?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=YAHA13ER32DA3Y551432"]https://www.amazon.c...3ER32DA3Y551432[/url]


I hope I am getting closer to finding out what I need... thank you for your help and patience, this is all a new world for me!


edit: I've checked a few videos of the Palmer PDI09 in action used to DI a guitar directly from the amplifier output. That's actually really cool... hmmm. I might actually find a use for this thing with my guitars...

Edited January 26, 2017 by mcnach

[markstuk]

Zdirect vs xdirect. One is passive, the other active...

http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/art-dual-x-direct-dual-z-direct

[EBS_freak]

Hmm. Interesting read - doesn't specifically mention speaker loads though. I'll have a read.

Edited January 26, 2017 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

On paper - that ART looks good. The Z doesn't do speaker, the X appears to do so.

If uncoloured as possible is what you are interested in, check [url="http://shop.kempermusic.com/int-en/kemper/accessories/298/profiler-di-box"]http://shop.kempermu...profiler-di-box[/url] - but I bet it's essentially the same inside but just in a pretty box.

Edited January 26, 2017 by EBS_freak

[mcnach]

I hate BassChat. I was happier (and wealthier) when I knew nothing at all

I think I am going to try the Art X-Direct and see how that works. But that Palmer PDI09 seems really cool on guitar, hmmm. I predict I'll have one before the end of the year

I got my Behringer P1 today and a couple of cables... I'll be able to test this idea soon

[mcnach]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1485418012' post='3223747']
Zdirect vs xdirect. One is passive, the other active...

[url="http://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/art-dual-x-direct-dual-z-direct"]http://www.soundonso...t-dual-z-direct[/url]
[/quote]

Thank you!

[EBS_freak]

Should be worth stating that a DI mix will sound really bright and harsh as you'd normally expect a speaker on the end of it - even for monitor feeds - what is mixed for a monitor wedge won't necessarily sound right for inears, so the speaker emulation could be a good addition.

I suspect this is where the UE tap may fall down... unless they've put decent speaker emulation eq into the box.