Good at playing, rubbish at selling ourselves

[Nicko]

I know its been done before, but the band is getting increasingly frustrated by or inability to get bookings. I think we played 4 or 5 gigs last year, plus one private party.

We are booked for another party next week (same punter) and then have nothing until August (another repeat booking). More frustratingly we have a friend who's band is, frankly, not very good and they get bookings all the time at the places that we have been trying to get into.

Contrary to other threads here there are plenty of places around us that have live music.

We've all given it a try and none of us are coming up with anything. Ideas welcomed.

[Monkey Steve]

what sort of stuff are you playing (originals, covers, genre, etc) and what have you tried?

My own experience is that you need someone to take on the manager/promoter side of things - ideally someone who has the gift of the gab (usually the singer, and being gobby does tend to come with their territory) and will happily spend an evening ringing and e-mailing places and chatting to them about why your band is exactly what they need. All the bands I've been in that have struggled to get gigs suffered from a lack of anyone who was good at that, and the ones that have got regular gigs always had one person who was great at it.

[mikel]

Perhaps its because you have played so few gigs, you have no reputation for venues to latch onto? The so called inferior band you mention are out there, playing, and I presume getting repeat gigs, so they cant be that bad. If you think your band is so good why not offer a venue you really want to play in a free gig. I know its goes against the grain but If you are really struggling and fear the band may split then drastic action is required. Do you have a live recording you can give to venues to show what the band sounds like? One done live at rehearsal would do.

[markstuk]

IMHO you need collateral Do you have a Facebook page/web site? Do you have photos of you playing to the happy dancing (drinking) masses? A well produced demo along with live recordings is the best closer once you have your foot in the door.....

Explain to the venue how hosting you is going to make the venue money...

Edited February 3, 2017 by markstuk

[Grangur]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1486127481' post='3229426']
what sort of stuff are you playing (originals, covers, genre, etc) and what have you tried?

My own experience is that you need someone to take on the manager/promoter side of things - ideally someone who has the gift of the gab (usually the singer, and being gobby does tend to come with their territory) and will happily spend an evening ringing and e-mailing places and chatting to them about why your band is exactly what they need. All the bands I've been in that have struggled to get gigs suffered from a lack of anyone who was good at that, and the ones that have got regular gigs always had one person who was great at it.
[/quote]

I'm a professional salesman, done it for many years. Steve is right to some degree. You need someone to go out and meet the landlords or club managers etc but it needs to be the right person. Steve says "gobby", what you actually need is someone with the confidence, to do the meetings with a stranger, not necessarily "gobby".

It's very easy to fall into the trap of going round loads of places and spout out a practiced script of:

"Hello, I'm Wayne, I'm in a covers band, we play AC/DC, Stones, etc etc, etc, We're better than most others round her and we're getting started, when do you have a night free that we can do a night for you?... pause for breath."

The problem with this is Wayne, bless him, hasn't asked any questions. A good salesman listens more than speaks.

(God gave you 1 mouth and 2 ears, and there's a reason for this. You don't learn as much through talking.)

Go into see the manager:

[b]Wayne: [/b]Hi I'm Wayne, I'm with XYZ Band, we're just getting started in the area, we think we're good, but I wonder, can you help me please if you have 5 mins?
(Folk are naturally helpful, they don't think they want to be sold to, but they like to help)

[b]Manger:[/b] No, I'm up to my neck in it.

[b]Wayne[/b]: OK I can appreciate that, when would be a good time? - Get an appointment.

Or

[b]Manager[/b]: Yeah, sure. What can I do?

[b]Wayne[/b]; Well I know there are a number of bands about and I see you do live music. If you were looking for a new band, what would you like to see in that band? What sort of music?

[b]Manager[/b]: - Now he tells you what you need to know.

[b]Wayne[/b]: OK, cool. Just out of interest, of the bands you have here, mentioning no names, are there anythings they do, or don't do that you like, or don't like?
I guess, what I'm really asking is what is it in a band that, for you makes the whole deal work well for you and The Kings Arms?

[b]Manager[/b]: - Now he tells you more of what you need to know.

[b]Wayne[/b]: Cool, That's really helpful. Many thanks. We're a band that does that kind if music, and we can make sure we don't get-loaded / $h@gg the bar staff / play too loud, as we have our own limiter etc.. delete as appropriate. If we were able to deliver what you want, when would your next available night be?

[b]Manager[/b]: well we're now booking for April 2026....

[b]Wayne[/b]; Cool, we should be ready about then, can I give you some info, with our web page/ Farcebook / Lemonrock / Soundcloud... ?

Hopefully that should work better than spouting and getting nowhere. Good luck

Edited February 3, 2017 by Grangur

[Monkey Steve]

+1 to Grangur (and "gobby" was meant more as a criticism of singers than of salesmen)

I do think it depends on what market you are after, and you do need to think about the Landlord's position in all this. If you are doing the same stuff as your mate's band but to a better standard, the Landlord probably doesn't care if your mate's band bring in a crowd every time they play (and let's leave whether crowd's notice or care very much about the standard of the playing if they can sing along to the choruses for another thread) and they've already got one band playing AC/DC, the Stones. whatever, so do they need another? maybe you need to make more of an effort to differentiate yourselves and offer something more obviously different

Also +1 to Mikel for the loss leader idea - my last covers band got a lot of repeat business by offering to do the first show for half price.

We're sort of assuming that you do covers but if you're trying to get on at venues doing originals then that's a completely different market, but it's pretty easy to get support gigs at fairly well known small venues if you just e-mail them and ask if they need a support band for anything that's coming up- the Barfly, Boston Arms, Dublin Castle, Nambucca, etc

Edited February 3, 2017 by Monkey Steve

[nige1968]

Surely bar staff need love too?

[Grangur]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1486131134' post='3229471']
+1 to Grangur (and "gobby" was meant more as a criticism of singers than of salesmen)

I do think it depends on what market you are after, and you do need to think about the Landlord's position in all this. If you are doing the same stuff as your mate's band but to a better standard, the Landlord probably doesn't care if your mate's band bring in a crowd every time they play (and let's leave whether crowd's notice or care very much about the standard of the playing if they can sing along to the choruses for another thread) and they've already got one band playing AC/DC, the Stones. whatever, so do they need another? maybe you need to make more of an effort to differentiate yourselves and offer something more obviously different

Also +1 to Mikel for the loss leader idea - my last covers band got a lot of repeat business by offering to do the first show for half price.

We're sort of assuming that you do covers but if you're trying to get on at venues doing originals then that's a completely different market, but it's pretty easy to get support gigs at fairly well known small venues if you just e-mail them and ask if they need a support band for anything that's coming up- the Barfly, Boston Arms, Dublin Castle, Nambucca, etc
[/quote]

The "loss-leader" is a good one. Maybe even do a short-slot as a support band for free, if it's a local venue. That way the punters who've gone to see another act, will get to see you too.

[quote name='nige1968' timestamp='1486131401' post='3229479']
Surely bar staff need love too?
[/quote] Sorry, did I have that as a negative?

[lownote]

My brief experience of trying to flog our band is that round here anyway there are venues that want either a/music to get pissed by b/familiar covers c/innovative orgiinal music for music lovers. In many cases there is no crossover. Trying to flog the wrong sort of music to a venue won't work. Right sort of music, right venue - success easy peasy.

The second point, having evidence of your goodness is really important especially if there is no word of mouth yet. Have good stuff on soundcloud, videos on YouTube. And put a little effort into getting a decent video or recording done. See if there's a local amateur music scene videographer and feed him/her beer to get a half way decent result. I have seen the most God awful dark fuzzy videos with kakka audio, and think 'do you care so little about your product'?

The third point is find out if there are any local agents or music scouts. All my local music pubs use agents. Get to know the agent, or find out where they go to recruit, and put yourself in their line of sight.

[Nicko]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1486127481' post='3229426']
what sort of stuff are you playing (originals, covers, genre, etc) and what have you tried?

My own experience is that you need someone to take on the manager/promoter side of things - ideally someone who has the gift of the gab (usually the singer, and being gobby does tend to come with their territory) and will happily spend an evening ringing and e-mailing places and chatting to them about why your band is exactly what they need. All the bands I've been in that have struggled to get gigs suffered from a lack of anyone who was good at that, and the ones that have got regular gigs always had one person who was great at it.
[/quote]

Covers, mainly 90s and 00s stuff. Seems none of us are good at this kind of thing though.

[Nicko]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1486127542' post='3229427']
Perhaps its because you have played so few gigs, you have no reputation for venues to latch onto? The so called inferior band you mention are out there, playing, and I presume getting repeat gigs, so they cant be that bad. If you think your band is so good why not offer a venue you really want to play in a free gig. I know its goes against the grain but If you are really struggling and fear the band may split then drastic action is required. Do you have a live recording you can give to venues to show what the band sounds like? One done live at rehearsal would do.
[/quote]

Yes, I think it is because we cant get to play we have no reputation. The inferior band and us had a trial at a local place, they weren't booked, we were for August. I'm not sure they are getting repeat gigs, but seem to have a gift for getting their foot in the door at least. That was a free play as the venue has a good rep but the booking is a long way off obviously. Theres a couple of live vids on the website, although the sound quality is not great. We're currently recording all our practice sessions and will post some of that on the website too.

[Hobbayne]

Have you got a Lemonrock page?

[Nicko]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1486128221' post='3229436']
IMHO you need collateral Do you have a Facebook page/web site? Do you have photos of you playing to the happy dancing (drinking) masses? A well produced demo along with live recordings is the best closer once you have your foot in the door.....

Explain to the venue how hosting you is going to make the venue money...
[/quote]

Yes, we have FB and Website with studio recorded demo and some live footage. Explaining how we will make them money is the difficult bit - we hardly have a loyal following because you can't build one of those without gigs. Chicken. Egg.

[Nicko]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1486129700' post='3229453']
I'm a professional salesman, done it for many years. Steve is right to some degree. You need someone to go out and meet the landlords or club managers etc but it needs to be the right person. Steve says "gobby", what you actually need is someone with the confidence, to do the meetings with a stranger, not necessarily "gobby".

It's very easy to fall into the trap of going round loads of places and spout out a practiced script of:

"Hello, I'm Wayne, I'm in a covers band, we play AC/DC, Stones, etc etc, etc, We're better than most others round her and we're getting started, when do you have a night free that we can do a night for you?... pause for breath."

The problem with this is Wayne, bless him, hasn't asked any questions. A good salesman listens more than speaks.

(God gave you 1 mouth and 2 ears, and there's a reason for this. You don't learn as much through talking.)

Go into see the manager:

[b]Wayne: [/b]Hi I'm Wayne, I'm with XYZ Band, we're just getting started in the area, we think we're good, but I wonder, can you help me please if you have 5 mins?
(Folk are naturally helpful, they don't think they want to be sold to, but they like to help)

[b]Manger:[/b] No, I'm up to my neck in it.

[b]Wayne[/b]: OK I can appreciate that, when would be a good time? - Get an appointment.

Or

[b]Manager[/b]: Yeah, sure. What can I do?

[b]Wayne[/b]; Well I know there are a number of bands about and I see you do live music. If you were looking for a new band, what would you like to see in that band? What sort of music?

[b]Manager[/b]: - Now he tells you what you need to know.

[b]Wayne[/b]: OK, cool. Just out of interest, of the bands you have here, mentioning no names, are there anythings they do, or don't do that you like, or don't like?
I guess, what I'm really asking is what is it in a band that, for you makes the whole deal work well for you and The Kings Arms?

[b]Manager[/b]: - Now he tells you more of what you need to know.

[b]Wayne[/b]: Cool, That's really helpful. Many thanks. We're a band that does that kind if music, and we can make sure we don't get-loaded / $h@gg the bar staff / play too loud, as we have our own limiter etc.. delete as appropriate. If we were able to deliver what you want, when would your next available night be?

[b]Manager[/b]: well we're now booking for April 2026....

[b]Wayne[/b]; Cool, we should be ready about then, can I give you some info, with our web page/ Farcebook / Lemonrock / Soundcloud... ?

Hopefully that should work better than spouting and getting nowhere. Good luck
[/quote]

Looks like a plan. Thanks

[Nicko]

[quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1486135501' post='3229523']
Have you got a Lemonrock page?
[/quote]

Yes. That too. Getting reviews on it is difficult. I requested that our FB followers go on an post a review and we had 20 odd likes on FB for the comment and no review on Lemon.

[Phil Starr]

You are keeping it a secret, no link to it here. It would be good to look as we might be able to see how you are advertising yourselves. You can spy on me if you want, I've spied on Hobbayne.

Do you get approached by venues from Lemonrock? We got about half our leads to new venues from Lemonrock, once you've got the first gig you have to follow it up within a day or two of the gig for repeat bookings. If you don't get them then whatever they say to you you weren't good enough or maybe just wrong for their venue. Once you get, say, four venues that book you three or four times a year you'll find other venues interested. The savvy venue owners trawl Lemonrock to look at who gets a lot of bookings and go for those bands. You can do the same by seeing who books bands like yours and targetting them.

I've been involved in a lot of start-ups and the first few bookings are tricky, you have to be prepared to put it about a bit. I've played for half price to get the first booking and would be happy to play for free if it got me the first gig. Then you've got bookings on your website, video of you in action etc. Most of the reviews in Lemonrock and everywhere else on the web are from friends of the band.Some even from the band members themselves

[Maude]

I have offered to the risk away from landlords by playing for the evening and they can then pay me what they see fit.
If he hates it, don't pay us.
If he loves it, pay us the going rate for bands in his venue.
Somewhere inbetween, pay us somewhere in between.
Just make sure you tell him you're prepared to do it this way as you're confident he'll love you, all you ask is he's fair in any payment. If you don't mention that bit you could come across as desperate.
There's a risk they'll say you were sh*t and not pay you, but in my experience if you were good he'll want to book you again so will have to pay you.
I've never not been payed this way and a couple of places have given us extra above their normal rate.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Norris]

A lot of it is word of mouth too. If you can get your toes into one or two places and put on a good show then word will get around. If you can also work with the landlord and be accomodating then so much the better. But you do need to go visit a few venues, meet face to face with whoever does the bookings. Take one of your band mates, nominate a night, and go sound out all those places you'd like to play. One of you is going to have to be a driving force

[Number6]

Wear out the shoe leather as they say.....ask to speak to the guvnors of the pubs, ask for the contact details of any promoters in the area. It really is an exercise it networking.

[blue]

Is everybody in the band on the same page in terms of wanting to gig?

I ask only because after only 4-5 gigs over the course of a year some band members would have left the band?

How much do you want to gig, once a week,twice a week, once a month?

Blue

Edited February 4, 2017 by blue

[blue]

[quote name='Maude' timestamp='1486141256' post='3229619']
I have offered to the risk away from landlords by playing for the evening and they can then pay me what they see fit.
If he hates it, don't pay us.
If he loves it, pay us the going rate for bands in his venue.
Somewhere inbetween, pay us somewhere in between.
Just make sure you tell him you're prepared to do it this way as you're confident he'll love you, all you ask is he's fair in any payment. If you don't mention that bit you could come across as desperate.
There's a risk they'll say you were sh*t and not pay you, but in my experience if you were good he'll want to book you again so will have to pay you.
I've never not been payed this way and a couple of places have given us extra above their normal rate.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
[/quote]

In the States bars usually have a list of bands they book and are not really open to letting new bands in, so it's tough. It's all about alcohol sales over here, not how good a band is.Meaning if your band is playing, there's a good crowd and the bar staff are raking it in at that cash register, your a good band.

Personally unless your a teen band offering to play for free might make a band come off amature. You have to sell a band similar to how you would sell any other service.Set a price for your band and stick to it.

Blue

Edited February 4, 2017 by blue

[miles'tone]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1486129700' post='3229453']


I'm a professional salesman, done it for many years. Steve is right to some degree. You need someone to go out and meet the landlords or club managers etc but it needs to be the right person. Steve says "gobby", what you actually need is someone with the confidence, to do the meetings with a stranger, not necessarily "gobby".

It's very easy to fall into the trap of going round loads of places and spout out a practiced script of:

"Hello, I'm Wayne, I'm in a covers band, we play AC/DC, Stones, etc etc, etc, We're better than most others round her and we're getting started, when do you have a night free that we can do a night for you?... pause for breath."

The problem with this is Wayne, bless him, hasn't asked any questions. A good salesman listens more than speaks.

(God gave you 1 mouth and 2 ears, and there's a reason for this. You don't learn as much through talking.)

Go into see the manager:

[b]Wayne: [/b]Hi I'm Wayne, I'm with XYZ Band, we're just getting started in the area, we think we're good, but I wonder, can you help me please if you have 5 mins?
(Folk are naturally helpful, they don't think they want to be sold to, but they like to help)

[b]Manger:[/b] No, I'm up to my neck in it.

[b]Wayne[/b]: OK I can appreciate that, when would be a good time? - Get an appointment.

Or

[b]Manager[/b]: Yeah, sure. What can I do?

[b]Wayne[/b]; Well I know there are a number of bands about and I see you do live music. If you were looking for a new band, what would you like to see in that band? What sort of music?

[b]Manager[/b]: - Now he tells you what you need to know.

[b]Wayne[/b]: OK, cool. Just out of interest, of the bands you have here, mentioning no names, are there anythings they do, or don't do that you like, or don't like?
I guess, what I'm really asking is what is it in a band that, for you makes the whole deal work well for you and The Kings Arms?

[b]Manager[/b]: - Now he tells you more of what you need to know.

[b]Wayne[/b]: Cool, That's really helpful. Many thanks. We're a band that does that kind if music, and we can make sure we don't get-loaded / $h@gg the bar staff / play too loud, as we have our own limiter etc.. delete as appropriate. If we were able to deliver what you want, when would your next available night be?

[b]Manager[/b]: well we're now booking for April 2026....

[b]Wayne[/b]; Cool, we should be ready about then, can I give you some info, with our web page/ Farcebook / Lemonrock / Soundcloud... ?

Hopefully that should work better than spouting and getting nowhere. Good luck
[/quote]
Brilliant advice! 🍻

[bubinga5]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1486175507' post='3229891']
In the States bars usually have a list of bands they book and are not really open to letting new bands in, so it's tough. It's all about alcohol sales over here, not how good a band is.Meaning if your band is playing, there's a good crowd and the bar staff are raking it in at that cash register, your a good band.

Personally unless your a teen band offering to play for free might make a band come off amature. You have to sell a band similar to how you would sell any other service.Set a price for your band and stick to it.

Blue
[/quote] Out of interest Blue. Are there not bars, clubs. that people just listen to music. I mean like Ronnie Scotts in the US, or the Jazz cafe in London. Of course there are always alcohol sales, but the music and venues I've ever been to the crowd are there for the music. Does it depend on how big the band are.?

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1486127481' post='3229426']
what sort of stuff are you playing (originals, covers, genre, etc) and what have you tried?

My own experience is that you need someone to take on the manager/promoter side of things - ideally someone who has the gift of the gab (usually the singer, and being gobby does tend to come with their territory) and will happily spend an evening ringing and e-mailing places and chatting to them about why your band is exactly what they need. All the bands I've been in that have struggled to get gigs suffered from a lack of anyone who was good at that, and the ones that have got regular gigs always had one person who was great at it.
[/quote]

A single point of contact makes sense. In this case the singer. It makes little sense to me to be looking at the Internet for promotion on your local patch. Maybe see what financial implication there is to engaging someone outside of the band.

[Grangur]

[quote name='SpondonBassed' timestamp='1486187458' post='3229901']
A single point of contact makes sense. In this case the singer. It makes little sense to me to be looking at the Internet for promotion on your local patch. Maybe see what financial implication there is to engaging someone outside of the band.
[/quote]

Selling the band can be done by any one person who's switched on and has the band's interests at heart. It makes sense to have someone who is "equipped".

Set someone up with a folder or tablet that has some images of the band. Some "studio" posed ones would be ok, but you need some that look like the band is playing a gig. After all, you're wanting the guy to take a risk. Their fear is that you look at mess and sound cr@p. So why not hand out CDs as well.

The person selling you needs to come across as professional and dependable too. Remember that people don't like to take a risk so you need to make him feel comfortable. A switched-on non-employed wife of the band would be great. But they need to come across as confident and passionate about your performance.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Grangur