Pre-amp pedals vs. Active Pickups

[radiophonic]

I have an ongoing battle to boost the sound of my Jazz bass to something like the same as my Stingray without sacrificing its Jazz-ness. Even if I match them for volume at the desk, the Jazz sounds subjectively quieter (not a surprise given the respective EQ curves). A lot of articles talk about the Supercharged Jazz tone obtained by using an on-board active pre-amp/pickups, but could I obtain something similar using a pedal. No modding of the bass required (good), easier to sell on if I change my mind (also good). The downside it would seem to me is that you can't recover lost information i.e. If a pickup hasn't detected a sound in the first place it can't be amplified. So my question is; Is there any inherent advantage (leaving aside practicalities) of an onboard pre-amp over a pedal? I'm thinking about something like the MXR or similar - just active tone shaping, no overdrive etc.

[kodiakblair]

Would a clean boost pedal work ? Could place it before the pre amp pedal.

[radiophonic]

[quote name='kodiakblair' timestamp='1486387427' post='3231294']
Would a clean boost pedal work ? Could place it before the pre amp pedal.
[/quote]

I can already boost the output using an LS-2 - collapsed across all frequencies, the levels [i]are [/i]matched (measure at the desk), but subjectively there's still something missing.

[GisserD]

IMHO they are in essence exactly the same thing but used in different ways/for different reasons.

The advantage of a on board preamp i guess is that you dont have to power it separately and you can control it/adjust it on the fly whyslt you are playing.

The advantage of a pedal is that you can switch it on and off, and provided you can set it up for unity gain like the MXR M81, you can use it on multiple instruments for example.

[rmorris]

how about:

a) Turn it up more at the desk so the levels sound similar to the ears rather than meters ?
I guess you might run into headroom issues ?
Turn down the level of the Stingray at the desk ?


b ) Use the EQ on the desk ?

Changing the pickups / preamp EQ is going to change the tone to some extent (obvs :-)
I guess the idea is to not alter it too much ?

The on board preamp option arguably has the advantage of buffering the pickups close to the pickups themselves, as opposed to after a couple of meters of cable.

Edited February 6, 2017 by rmorris

[radiophonic]

[quote name='rmorris' timestamp='1486390348' post='3231325']

I guess the idea is to not alter it too much ?

The on board preamp option arguably has the advantage of buffering the pickups close to the pickups themselves, as opposed to after a couple of meters of cable.
[/quote]

Your final point is the one I was flailing towards really. I do get some noise from the pickups though, unless they are both wide open (the peril of single coils I guess) so I may be introducing more problems. I'd like to keep as much of the Jazz tone intact as I can, but I'm aware that there is a sense of drop out when I swap basses - In one section I swap mid-song during an acoustic break, so it's pretty obvious. Just a little more oomph to the frequency extremes without going overboard is what I'm after. The first pedal on my board is buffered (LS2) and the impedance of the active and passive inputs on the amp are identical so I'm not losing anything by routing a passive bass to the active input, provided the gain structure is ok.

I was thinking:
Jazz -> Preamp (always on) --> LS2* Return A
Stingray -> LS2 Return B
LS2 Output --> ... Amp

* in A<->B<->Bypass mode, so I still have a killswitch

Cheaper than a preamp mod to the bass right?

[Passinwind]

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1486385827' post='3231269']
I have an ongoing battle to boost the sound of my Jazz bass to something like the same as my Stingray without sacrificing its Jazz-ness. Even if I match them for volume at the desk, the Jazz sounds subjectively quieter (not a surprise given the respective EQ curves). A lot of articles talk about the Supercharged Jazz tone obtained by using an on-board active pre-amp/pickups, but could I obtain something similar using a pedal. No modding of the bass required (good), easier to sell on if I change my mind (also good). The downside it would seem to me is that you can't recover lost information i.e. If a pickup hasn't detected a sound in the first place it can't be amplified. So my question is; Is there any inherent advantage (leaving aside practicalities) of an onboard pre-amp over a pedal? I'm thinking about something like the MXR or similar - just active tone shaping, no overdrive etc.
[/quote]

First off, active pickups and onboard preamps are not necessarily the same thing. Secondly, there a few onboard preamps that fit a Jazz bass without requiring any routing -- you just drop in a whole new control plate and you're done.

And lastly, you could do worse than to use one of the Radial Tonebone pedals to accomplish what you need to do with just one pedal. An even simpler solution is to just turn down the Stingray.

[radiophonic]

Just to clarify for the third time. The outputs of the two basses measure the same at the desk. This isn't about aggregate volume collapsed across all frequencies, it's about the envelope. Turning down the Stingray isn't the answer. I could back off the bass and the treble on the Stingray, but then it wouldn't sound the way I want it. Just middier. I just want to tweak the frequency output of the Jazz - a bit of active boost at the frequency extremes. If a pedal will do this effectively, then a pedal is the answer. I can the sell the pedal when/if I manage to sell the Jazz.

[PaulWarning]

the way I got my Jazz to 'cut through' was to fit a push/pull volume control so I could make the pick ups in series, makes the lower mids more pronounced, a lot like my P bass, which I guess is not quite the idea, but does solve the problem of the Jazz not being heard in the mix

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 24, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[paul_5]

[quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1486409828' post='3231591']
the way I got my Jazz to 'cut through' was to fit a push/pull volume control so I could make the pick ups in series, makes the lower mids more pronounced, a lot like my P bass, which I guess is not quite the idea, but does solve the problem of the Jazz not being heard in the mix
[/quote]

This.

[radiophonic]

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1486413477' post='3231623']
Can I ask why you're swapping basses? If you want the different sound then it will sit differently. That's part of the point!


[/quote]

The Jazz is fretless.

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited February 24, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[radiophonic]

[quote name='Jus Lukin' timestamp='1486422719' post='3231737']
Definitely a two-bass situation then!

I keep re-reading the first post but I think I'm missing something- you don't want to make the basses sound more similar to each other, right? I'd still just turn up the Jazz until it matches perceived volume rather than considering how the desk is set. Perhaps a little compression in the right place may also help.

As for the main question though, there is no difference between onboard or outboard preamps, bar practicality and any features you may find on individual units. I've never had an issue with cable capacitance beyond coily cables, so whatever length of cable there is bewteen a passive bass and outboard preamp should be negligible IMO.

Personally I find that a graphic EQ is far more flexible than most pres for sculpting a signal, so that could be a consideration too.
[/quote]

I don't want to radically alter the sound of the Jazz, but a bit of a boost at the frequency extremes to even out the differences a bit would be helpful. I like what the Jazz can do on it's own, but the contrast with a stingray is pretty stark, especially when swapping mid set or even mid song. The ideal solution would be a different (and active) fretless (probably another stingray in fact), but I need to sell the Jazz and in the meantime I have gigs to play. It sounds like a s/h eq pedal would do the job as a short term fix and then I could sell it on. I just missed an MXR in the classifieds alas, but I'll try lugging my bass down to PMT at the weekend and see what they have.

[rmorris]

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1486457979' post='3231848']
I don't want to radically alter the sound of the Jazz, but a bit of a boost at the frequency extremes to even out the differences a bit would be helpful. I like what the Jazz can do on it's own, but the contrast with a stingray is pretty stark, especially when swapping mid set or even mid song. The ideal solution would be a different (and active) fretless (probably another stingray in fact), but I need to sell the Jazz and in the meantime I have gigs to play. It sounds like a s/h eq pedal would do the job as a short term fix and then I could sell it on. I just missed an MXR in the classifieds alas, but I'll try lugging my bass down to PMT at the weekend and see what they have.
[/quote]

Sounds like a pedal graphic EQ would be the thing.
Previously I've recommended:

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[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Great build quality 7 band bass eq. Good Prices.[/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Not expensive (and cheaper s/h of course) so likely no need to sell it on and it's always [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]handy to have something like this to hand.[/font][/color]

[EBS_freak]

It sounds like it's not a volume thing that you are having problems, more of a "fatness" thing. Have you tried to make the jazz bass "bloom" more, via something like a compressor or overdrive (when I say overdrive, I don't mean distortion, I mean more like the soft drive you'd get from tubes - it thickens the sound before hitting that audible distortion)?

[mcnach]

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1486385827' post='3231269']
I have an ongoing battle to boost the sound of my Jazz bass to something like the same as my Stingray without sacrificing its Jazz-ness. Even if I match them for volume at the desk, the Jazz sounds subjectively quieter (not a surprise given the respective EQ curves). A lot of articles talk about the Supercharged Jazz tone obtained by using an on-board active pre-amp/pickups, but could I obtain something similar using a pedal. No modding of the bass required (good), easier to sell on if I change my mind (also good). The downside it would seem to me is that you can't recover lost information i.e. If a pickup hasn't detected a sound in the first place it can't be amplified. So my question is; Is there any inherent advantage (leaving aside practicalities) of an onboard pre-amp over a pedal? I'm thinking about something like the MXR or similar - just active tone shaping, no overdrive etc.
[/quote]

If what you're looking for is a higher signal level, not the ability to change EQ drastically from the bass itself, I would not bother with installing a typical preamp on the bass. Unless it's something like the preamp on the G&L L-series, which does not change the tone (apart from that one brightness switch which you could ignore).

I don't have difficulty matching the output of my Stingray and my Jazz basses, so I wonder whether your Jazz has particularly weaker (not saying bad sounding! sometimes the most delicious pickups are low output) pickups.

If you love the sound you have right now, I'd just get an external pedal. There's lots of pedals that can do a clean boost, some with added tone controls, and of course most graphic EQ pedals can be used for that purpose too. If you're already using some pedals this is a simple option, and even a £15 Behringer PB100 will work (although it's got a little hiss, so I'd personally just get a Boss EQ pedal as it can be used for other things too). If you're just going to use this one pedal, and it forces you to carry its power supply, extra cables, etc etc... then maybe looking at other pickups it's an option.

If you don't necessarily need to keep the existing pickups, there are lots out there that can match a Stingray (which does not have a particularly hot output, by the way). I know the Area J pickups work. The Fender Custom Shop 60s would be my first choice 'though. They are lovely sounding, good honest J-bass sound, and my 75RI was not quieter than the Stingray for sure.

But I wonder if it's a matter of changing the pickup height. Have you tried raising the pickups to get closer to the strings? It will change the sound, which you may like or not, but it's easy, fast, and reversible. I'd try that first if you haven't yet. A couple millimetres can make a big difference.

[mcnach]

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1486388416' post='3231302']
I can already boost the output using an LS-2 - collapsed across all frequencies, the levels [i]are [/i]matched (measure at the desk), but subjectively there's still something missing.
[/quote]

Is what's missing perhaps related to the different tone between the two basses?

The Stingray typically has a lot more low midrange and sounds 'louder' and more prominent than a typical Jazz with both pickups on, mostly because there's a slight mid-scoop with the Jazz (and sometimes not so slight! it depends on the actual bass: pickups and pickup heights -which dictates balance-)

If that's the issue then it's not so much making the bass louder but perhaps getting some more mids in there, taming the midscoop.
You can try to address that by experimenting with pickup heights. At different heights you can alter the balance between the pickups, and you may find a sweet spot that gives you that extra amount of clarity, as opposed to a total mid-robbing spot that you can also get. It takes time, trial and error, and it's a fine balancing job between absolute heights and balance between bridge and neck pickups... but it's free and all you need is a screw driver and some time.
You can address that throwing technology at it: John East J-Retro preamp. The level is adjustable, and it can be very powerful, so you will not have a quiet bass anymore unless you really try. You get a 2-band EQ, an active blend control so that you can get the right balance between pickups... and a mids module with frequency centre sweep. This allows you to boost some of the mids that you may find lacking... and because you can sweep-search by boosting mids and twiddling the frequency knob until you hit the spot, you know you'll get the exact frequency area unlike with standard 3-band preamps. So this can work and I've used that a lot... but it adds a bunch of extra controls (and cost) which you may or not want.

[radiophonic]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1486461835' post='3231909']
It sounds like it's not a volume thing that you are having problems, more of a "fatness" thing. Have you tried to make the jazz bass "bloom" more, via something like a compressor or overdrive (when I say overdrive, I don't mean distortion, I mean more like the soft drive you'd get from tubes - it thickens the sound before hitting that audible distortion)?
[/quote]

I do use a compressor and it does help. I'm thinking fattening with OD without distortion is really just a mix of EQ and compression anyway, so I think we're talking about the same thing.

[mcnach]

OK, catching up with all the messages now...

It's a tough one as those two basses are going to sound very different. But you can certainly do something about it. Are you using mostly one pickup, or both together. If mostly one pickup, then skip to the next paragraph... if both together, I'd make a note of where you are right now regarding pickup heights and angles, and start mixing it up a bit. You can alter the sound quite a bit and find combinations that bring up much more mids than others, which can make the Jazz sit better than it does now.
Alternatively... the easiest solution is throwing extra controls at it: J-Retro preamp. This one will work, and it's fully adjustable. It does change a bit the sound of the original bass as it does have an inherent 'colour' (which I like anyway, it's still a Jazz bass, don't worry) although I believe they also make a version that doesn't colour the sound (unless you twiddle knobs), so if you like this idea I'd contact John East and ask him. He's very approachable and helpful.

[GisserD]

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1486457979' post='3231848']


I don't want to radically alter the sound of the Jazz, but a bit of a boost at the frequency extremes to even out the differences a bit would be helpful. I like what the Jazz can do on it's own, but the contrast with a stingray is pretty stark, especially when swapping mid set or even mid song. The ideal solution would be a different (and active) fretless (probably another stingray in fact), but I need to sell the Jazz and in the meantime I have gigs to play. It sounds like a s/h eq pedal would do the job as a short term fix and then I could sell it on. I just missed an MXR in the classifieds alas, but I'll try lugging my bass down to PMT at the weekend and see what they have.
[/quote]

I'll sell you my mxr m81.

I don't use it

[dannybuoy]

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1486417027' post='3231661']
The Jazz is fretless.
[/quote]

There's your problem! Swap it for a fretless 'Ray.

[GreeneKing]

I understand you not wanting to install a pre. Even though that's what I'd do myself. I'd look for an outboard pre and eq. I recently bought a Palmer Bass DI/EQ from Thomann for non silly money and I'm pleased with it although I bought it for home practice. Fretless may benefit from low mid boost and playing the bridge pup in my experience. All the best with it.

[Harlequin74]

[quote name='GisserD' timestamp='1486464421' post='3231964']


I'll sell you my mxr m81.

I don't use it
[/quote]

How much Gisser.

[GisserD]

[quote name='Harlequin74' timestamp='1486532281' post='3232492']


How much Gisser.
[/quote]

110 posted

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