moral dilemma?

[Conan]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1486397297' post='3231432']
Have I got this right, the current bass player can't play the bass parts on the new album?

Which begs the question who wrote them - it's normally the bass player in my experience? In which case the problem doesn't arise....
[/quote]

Maybe, but it happens. Something similar happened with Ron Blair in Tom Petty's Heartbreakers. Tom is a pretty decent bass player himself (and so is Mike Campbell) and they wanted the bass lines done in a certain way. Blair didn't want to play them like that so he left. It was all pretty amicable though, which this situation seems not to be...

[skankdelvar]

Seems the band have not yet reached a consensus about what to do in the short term. It may be the case that the 'key member' may insist the current bass player stays until the new material is launched. Or he may not. Either way, that's for them to sort out and the OP bears no responsibility for whatever decision they make.

If they sack the current bass player there's an opening. If they approach the OP to dep it's his choice whether to accept or not.

That said, the OP may wish to suggest to his friend that the band audition a couple of other deps anyway. That way, if he's gets the job it's on merit. Of course, the band may reject that suggestion and take him on anyway, in which case he has discharged any such 'moral' responsibility with which he may have burdened himself.

[TimR]

[quote name='drTStingray' timestamp='1486397297' post='3231432']
Have I got this right, the current bass player can't play the bass parts on the new album?

Which begs the question who wrote them - it's normally the bass player in my experience? In which case the problem doesn't arise....
[/quote]

Sounds like they've told him he's not going to be playing them and the guitarist will be playing them.

I would have left by now.

[Monkey Steve]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1486396765' post='3231423']
Just seems really weird to me. They've told him he won't be on the new album but he thinks he is still in the band, and they're keeping him on the current tour.

Just doesn't make sense. Why is he even hanging around?
[/quote]

there is a lot of stuff I could add to explain all of this, but again, cats and bags that don't belong to me.

From the version of things I've heard I'd be amazed if he can't see it coming (unless he has rhino hide for skin), but also that he will be very upset when it does finally happen. But trust me, it's not a "one last chance to improve or we'll have to let you go" situation.

Conan probably nails it - learn the songs, be an option for them if they ask for one. I've not been pushing for this...well, I have been one of a chorus of people telling the band that their bass player isn't up to it (and in fact not telling the band, answering their questions when they've asked what I think), but it's been "sack him" not "hire me". In fact I was genuinely surprised when he asked me

[Muppet]

If the band has asked you to learn the bass lines to act as potential stand-in should the situation arise and you're OK with that, then do just that.

Stay out of the band politics until they say "hey we've not got a bass player, can you help?". The fact that they are lining you up as a replacement is not your problem unless you are going to let them down.

[Conan]

Musicians tend to know other musicians, especially if they are actively gigging. I suspect this sort of thing happens a lot when band members wobble a bit. It's a sensible precaution to prepare a replacement if you know that someone needs replacing.

However, the way that it is handled is what tells you about the people concerned. It can be done in a considerate manner, if that is what is required. Do the band have a manager? Crappy decisions like this are usually devolved to them!

Edited February 6, 2017 by Conan

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='Monkey Steve' timestamp='1486398183' post='3231446']
I've not been pushing for this...well, I have been one of a chorus of people telling the band that their bass player isn't up to it (and in fact not telling the band, answering their questions when they've asked what I think), but it's been "sack him" not "hire me". In fact I was genuinely surprised when he asked me
[/quote]

Don't sweat this one, chap. If they're sufficiently jaded as to be soliciting opinions from a number of people then the sh*t's going to hit the fan sooner or later, and whether you were involved or not. His fate was sealed long ago.

Sod's law says the band will either (i) throw a 360 and keep him on (ii) hire someone else or (iii) split up because the 'key member' is heartbroken about his bosom pal being deep-sixed.

Whatever moral qualms may be expressed on these occasions, one notes that whenever a 'dodgy drummer' thread appears here it is generally the consensus that the offending sticksman immediately be taken outside and shot in the back of the head, the better that the band move forward with all promptitude.

Edited February 6, 2017 by skankdelvar

[markstuk]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1486399651' post='3231461']
Don't sweat this one, chap. If they're sufficiently jaded as to be soliciting opinions from a number of people then the sh*t's going to hit the fan sooner or later, and whether you were involved or not. His fate was sealed long ago.

Sod's law says the band will either (i) throw a 360 and keep him on (ii) hire someone else or (iii) split up because the 'key member' is heartbroken about his bosom pal being deep-sixed.

Whatever moral qualms may be expressed on these occasions, one notes that whenever a 'dodgy drummer' thread appears here it is generally the consensus that the offending sticksman immediately be taken outside and shot in the back of the head, the better that the band move forward with all promptitude.
[/quote]

But this is basschat not drumgrunt

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1486400613' post='3231475']
But this is basschat not drumgrunt
[/quote]

Quite so.

Drumgrunt - me likey!

[LewisK1975]

My advice would be to steer clear of it for now until it's resolved one way or another.

All that's really happened so far is that you've been made aware that this guy is more than likely going to be fired, and if he is then you might be in with a shout.

Leave it at that until they've done whatever they end up doing. Then you've no need to feel bad if you do get the job.

I agree that there's no harm in learning their current stuff. It might even turn out by doing that, you may realize it's not for you anyway.

And if you do get the job, don't feel bad about it for one second, there's plenty of other guys out there who wouldn't give it a second thought. Better you up on stage in a festival than one of them.

Good luck to you..

[Wooks79]

It's a shame that this is all being talked ABOUT him rather than to him.

If I was him I'd have left the second people were writing basslines and telling me I wasn't gonna be recording, and I think they need to sh*t or get off the pot as it's selfish to keep him hanging just cos they have live commitments.

If I heard this about a band, I wouldn't join them, but I guess you're mates with them, so it may be different for you if anything similar ever arose?

[BigRedX]

I think it is very easy to take the high moral ground on the part of the existing bass player without knowing all the details.

Lets face it if you're not a particularly competent player you might be quite glad that someone else is coming up with the bass lines for you to play and is going to be playing them in the studio where it really matters. Lets face it too - live unless you are persistently playing out of tune and/or out of time, if you are not the singer or the main melodic instrument no-one is probably going to notice. Maybe the existing bass player looks good on stage. We just don't know.

[Yank]

O.K. The guitarist wrote the music and the singer wrote the lyrics. They should stick to that.It's arrogant of them to tell the bass player what to play. If they don't like his style, fine, find someone else. This is pop or rock, not an orchestra or Broadway pit band. Bunch of w***ers.

[Number6]

I'd have got the message as soon as the Guitarists said they'd record the bass parts. That equates to "You're not needed or wanted" i'd have been off straight away.

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1486392169' post='3231354']
You sitting down with the bass player and "discussing the situation" is the worst advice ever!

It's not your place to discuss band personnel or politics. Keep well away from that. It's down to the band what they want to do and they won't thank you for poking your nose in!!

And as I say, the guy is gone anyway, so why should you want to give the gig away to someone else when you could be doing it?
[/quote]

This. I gather the bass player is not a friend of yours and also that you are not looking at this as a long term thing (and therefore won't lose any sleep if the bands finds someone permanent after you've helped them out for a while). If the guy isn't up to it, he isn't up to it and will be gone one way or the other. If you fancy the job and the band is happy to be open about the possibly temporary nature of the appointment, what is there to lose? You wouldn't fret if a band approached you out of the blue and asked you to play bass and yet they could have gone through this same process before you knew of them. From their point of view, they want someone who can hit the ground running, hence the request to learn the stuff before you start. That's sensible of them. If they have an album to promote, they can't afford to wait around whilst a new bass player learns the material. There's no moral issue, despite what others think. We all get most jobs, whether in music or elsewhere, because someone has moved on - they may have been sacked or left of their own accord. That's just life.

[Dan Dare]

[quote name='Yank' timestamp='1486464563' post='3231966']
O.K. The guitarist wrote the music and the singer wrote the lyrics. They should stick to that.It's arrogant of them to tell the bass player what to play. If they don't like his style, fine, find someone else. This is pop or rock, not an orchestra or Broadway pit band. Bunch of w***ers.
[/quote]

You said it - "The guitarist wrote the music". It doesn't have to be an "orchestra or pit band" for there to be arrangements and it isn't "arrogant" for a writer of a piece of music to visualise the entire piece, rather than just a simple melody/top line and to want parts played in a certain way. Why, because it's "pop or rock", does that mean it has to be a free for all? Afraid you're being naïve.

[Dropzone]

If I were said bass playing in the band, I would prefer to know sooner rather than later, bit like a plaster being ripped off. Sounds like the rot is already there, it is just a matter of time. WT the new position, I would familierise myself with the songs and have them up to jam standards.

[Bassassin]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1486466700' post='3231993']
You said it - "The guitarist wrote the music". It doesn't have to be an "orchestra or pit band" for there to be arrangements and it isn't "arrogant" for a writer of a piece of music to visualise the entire piece, rather than just a simple melody/top line and to want parts played in a certain way. Why, because it's "pop or rock", does that mean it has to be a free for all? Afraid you're being naïve.
[/quote]

I agree with this - in my band I compose the music, apart from the vocals - I absolutely don't want a guitarist & drummer deciding to discard my work & rewrite the parts just because it's "their" instrument. They get a degree of free rein to interpret parts - and I'm always open to input & trying different ideas & approaches - but the bottom line is the song's the song and once it becomes a performance or full band recording, [i]everyone[/i] serves the song.

[TimR]

[quote name='Bassassin' timestamp='1486468750' post='3232016']


I agree with this - in my band I compose the music, apart from the vocals - I absolutely don't want a guitarist & drummer deciding to discard my work & rewrite the parts just because it's "their" instrument. They get a degree of free rein to interpret parts - and I'm always open to input & trying different ideas & approaches - but the bottom line is the song's the song and once it becomes a performance or full band recording, [i]everyone[/i] serves the song.
[/quote]

It's YOUR band though which is quite a bit different to a lot of bands.

[Marc S]

[quote name='Dropzone' timestamp='1486467792' post='3232003']
If I were said bass playing in the band, I would prefer to know sooner rather than later......
[/quote]

As others have already said, if you're not in this band, I don't think you should be involved. If they've asked you to do so, it sounds like they don't want to handle sackings themselves. Asking your advice is fine, but once you've given your advice.... leave it there....

Re the above quote - absolutely! If it were me, I'd want to know asap.
It sounds to me like they want to keep this guy in the dark as to his future, get someone else in, then sack him, when it's convenient to the band. I'd be well miffed, if I'd just done a tour, or series of dates through spring & summer, only to find I was good enough yesterday, but not for tomorrow... and that while I was gigging with them, they had already planned my replacement.

Yes, bands and members have to evolve, and this guy should try to keep up. But if he can't, he needs to be told. Who knows, perhaps a bit of a nudge might help him improve? It has happened many times before.

I can't quite get why the band thinks he's good enough for their current and imminent dates, but why he won't be able to learn & grow?
Also sounds like the keyboardist, who is the current bassists' mate, is in a very difficult position

Edited February 7, 2017 by Marc S

[xgsjx]

I haven't read all the posts, but here's my take...

The band should say to the current bassist "get bass lessons & learn the songs by "x date" or we'll unfortunately need to replace you".
If he refuses the idea of bass lessons, or doesn't make progress to play said bass lines, then you replace him.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1486466700' post='3231993']
You said it - "The guitarist wrote the music". It doesn't have to be an "orchestra or pit band" for there to be arrangements and it isn't "arrogant" for a writer of a piece of music to visualise the entire piece, rather than just a simple melody/top line and to want parts played in a certain way. Why, because it's "pop or rock", does that mean it has to be a free for all? Afraid you're being naïve.
[/quote]

Really guys. . . . this is the real world.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Yank' timestamp='1486464563' post='3231966']
O.K. The guitarist wrote the music and the singer wrote the lyrics. They should stick to that.It's arrogant of them to tell the bass player what to play. If they don't like his style, fine, find someone else. This is pop or rock, not an orchestra or Broadway pit band. Bunch of w***ers.
[/quote]

It depends. It depends whether it's 'their' band, and they just want people to play their vision. Not all bands are a 'commune'. As long as that role is clear from the start, it's all good. Imagine you join an established band: you'd likely be playing what others wrote and you would probably be required to stick largely to the existing parts.

[mcnach]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1486466700' post='3231993']
You said it - "The guitarist wrote the music". It doesn't have to be an "orchestra or pit band" for there to be arrangements and it isn't "arrogant" for a writer of a piece of music to visualise the entire piece, rather than just a simple melody/top line and to want parts played in a certain way. Why, because it's "pop or rock", does that mean it has to be a free for all? Afraid you're being naïve.
[/quote]

Exactly

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dan Dare' timestamp='1486466700' post='3231993']
You said it - "The guitarist wrote the music". It doesn't have to be an "orchestra or pit band" for there to be arrangements and it isn't "arrogant" for a writer of a piece of music to visualise the entire piece, rather than just a simple melody/top line and to want parts played in a certain way. Why, because it's "pop or rock", does that mean it has to be a free for all? Afraid you're being naïve.
[/quote]

[quote name='Bassassin' timestamp='1486468750' post='3232016']
I agree with this - in my band I compose the music, apart from the vocals - I absolutely don't want a guitarist & drummer deciding to discard my work & rewrite the parts just because it's "their" instrument. They get a degree of free rein to interpret parts - and I'm always open to input & trying different ideas & approaches - but the bottom line is the song's the song and once it becomes a performance or full band recording, [i]everyone[/i] serves the song.
[/quote]

Very much both of these.

I write nearly all of the music for my band and the majority of the time I have a pretty good idea what I would like the other instruments to play in the songs.

I've been in bands that write with everyone contributing and jamming the structure out and IME there is almost always far too much flab in the songs and nothing is ever tightly focused like a good arrangement will be.

Also IME the right musicians for most bands aren't "ten a penny" and sometimes it is better to make do with someone who maybe isn't quite up to the job rather than no-one and consequently having to put the band on hold while a suitable replacement is found. From the band PoV it's always better to have a suitable replacement ready before discarding any under-performing members.

IMO the song and the band as a whole comes first and the individual musicians very much second.

Edited February 7, 2017 by BigRedX