Multi effects pedal vs single pedals

[Dood]

Had a comment from a fellow BC'r on the B3n thread that they found the Zoom MS-60B octave effect to be good. Would others agree? I felt that the tracking with low notes on the MS-60B leaves a little to be desired, and a decent octave effect is a priority for me (and which was kind of the trigger for this thread, although it's been very helpful anyways!)

How do the other multi fx boxes fare with tracking at the low end - how low do they reasonably go - any manage to track all the way down to a bottom E? Do any dedicated octave pedals manage this?

Something like this you mean?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10881008/BassPitch%20and%20Bass%20Chorus.mp3

The pitch is set at 75% wet so there's very little dry signal coming through and there's also a smidge of chorus in there too.

The reality of pitch that low is that Analogue pedals won't do it. Digital (DSP) pedals can, but there's a caveat. Analogue sounds great but it tends not to track so low. DSP goes low, but in order to do it, the DSP needs more waveform to process (because lower frequencies have a longer waveform) so what you can end up with, is a small delay time before the octave down pitch comes out. The longer the delay, the less likely you were going to suffer from glitching as the processor can sample the waveform better. I had a TC processor that allowed the changing of the pitch processing time and that demonstrated the issue clearly.

I wouldn't have that much wet octave in my sound and thus the dry signal would more than mask that delay. This clip isn't indicative of the sound I would set up, because I'd also add some EQ to the octave down if I could and what you are hearing here is a bass with no EQ, no amp, no compression, just straight in to the interface. p.s. you won't hear this well on laptop speakers or earbud earphones. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

oh, p.s - the two pitches right at the end that sound wobbly (after the clicks I inserted) are Eb and D

[Dood]

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10881008/BassPitch.mp3

Ok, so I should be working right now, but I dropped down the quickest, messiest groove for you with similar settings with a Low D in there. The pedal seems to hide what it can't do, but all the other notes are definitely in there!

Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Left Foot]

But you'll never have to tweak them again once you've got it right, and they'll be right every time you select them.

Which still isn't unique to a multi effects unit. But really... You've never had to balance your sound for a thumpy room by adjusting effects or even balancing out with equaliser adjustments? It's always been perfect. Everytime? Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[BigRedX]

Which still isn't unique to a multi effects unit. But really... You've never had to balance your sound for a thumpy room by adjusting effects or even balancing out with equaliser adjustments? It's always been perfect. Everytime?

TBH if I'm using my full rig and, I've never had to make any adjustments to suit the room, I switch on and it sounds right. Besides you can't fix room problems with EQ. If you are lucky you'll make it sound less crap in some places. I can only recall two occasions when I've encountered really bad room acoustics and both times it was so bad that no amount of EQ adjustment made any difference anywhere in the room. IMO the only worthwhile solution would have been to completely demolish the buildings and start again. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[chris_b]

You've never had to balance your sound for a thumpy room by adjusting effects or even balancing out with equaliser adjustments?

If you have a thumpy sound you'll be affected by a thumpy room. My Bergs had a very tight and well controlled low end. A ton of bass and no thump in any room. My BF Super Compacts are almost the same.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Left Foot]

TBH if I'm using my full rig and, I've never had to make any adjustments to suit the room, I switch on and it sounds right. Besides you can't fix room problems with EQ. If you are lucky you'll make it sound less crap in some places. I can only recall two occasions when I've encountered really bad room acoustics and both times it was so bad that no amount of EQ adjustment made any difference anywhere in the room. IMO the only worthwhile solution would have been to completely demolish the buildings and start again.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[bazzbass]

. Besides you can't fix room problems with EQ.

maybe you can't fix broken doors in the room, but EQ is EXACTLY how you fix poor sound dynamics in a room Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[BigRedX]

maybe you can't fix broken doors in the room, but EQ is EXACTLY how you fix poor sound dynamics in a room

Unfortunately you are mistaken.

If that was the case recording studios wouldn't need lots of expensive acoustic treatment in their control rooms, they could simply slap a 31-band graphic equaliser across the monitor output and everything would be fine!

Room acoustics are both a time domain problem and a frequency domain problem - in that they are caused by standing and reflected waveforms creating peaks and troughs in the sound at different frequencies, but also just as importantly at different positions in the room. Because of this, while it might be possible to make things sound better in one part of the room by adjusting the EQ, you are just as likely to make it much worse in others at the same time. You also are just as likely to improve matters by repositioning your speakers or at least changing the direction in which they are pointing. As you can see and hear trying to fix it with a frequency domain only solution is not going to be completely successful.

One venue I've played in is shaped in such a way that the sound (particularly the bottom end) is focused away from the stage and into the audience area. On stage everything sounds weedy and lifeless with no real bass, but if we were to EQ to compensate we would be subjecting the audience to a very nasty bass-heavy mush of sound, which wouldn't be very pleasant for them at all. No amount of EQ adjustment alone is going make the room sound good for both the performers on the stage and the audience in the main part of the room.

In another venue, the biggest improvement we can make to the overall sound is to draw the curtains over the large windows that occupies nearly all of one wall. Immediately everything sounds much better and there has been no need to adjust the EQ at all!

Remember that the sound in nearly every venue improves vastly as soon as a reasonably sized audience is present. These people haven't been sneakily adjusting your EQ to achieve this! They do it because their bodies break up the reflection patterns in the room that have been causing problems. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Naetharu]

One of the problems when comparing and multi effects unit against single pedals is that people are rarely comparing like for like. A budget unit like the Zoom which does lots of things well - maybe some of them very well, isn't really going to be able to compete sonically with pedals that only do a single thing yet are each still more expensive than the multi effects unit.

I can see why you would reason that but I am not sure it is true. Price does not always equate to an improved sound. In the case of the Zoom MS60B I find some of the patches on there to be very high quality. Others less so.

Price can equate to quality construction - my dislike of Behringer is more to do with the poor construction of their pedals than the sound as such. And when it comes to analogue equipment it can of course come into play with the quality of components (though whether expensive components really sound better is a matter for discussion).

However, when you're talking about Zoom stuff, you're comparing the price that a massive company can afford to construct and sell digital units to the price of small boutique companies putting out hand-wired goods in low numbers. A large part of the price difference is merely economy of scale. I'd certainly never write off a Zoom or other inexpensive unit just because of the price. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

How do the other multi fx boxes fare with tracking at the low end - how low do they reasonably go - any manage to track all the way down to a bottom E? Do any dedicated octave pedals manage this?

Sub n' Up by TC Electronic arrived a short time ago and at writing, I have not played a single Octave pedal that can track down as low as this one (in Poly mode). Genuinely astonished and I haven't tweaked a thing yet. 20 minutes in and this one is a total keeper. Very handy when I don't want to take a bunch of pedals out too given what the TonePrints also have on offer. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

Hey Dood! Just checked out a couple of reviews and that bit of kit does look good! How low can you go? And what about in dry / single note mode? So in your view better than both the Micro POG and MXR m288?

The Toneprint clearly turns the Sub n' Up into a multi FX, however using a mobile phone to change Toneprint in the middle of a gig? Never felt that was going to be viable - your thoughts?

[molan]

Separate pedals all the way for me.

I love being able to swap things in and out so that I end up with the best of each effect that suits my needs. Multis are always a compromise, especially when it comes to dirt.

Aside from the tonal aspects, I find them a pain to tweak and program, and far prefer the hands on usability that separates offer. I'm no technophobe either, I work in IT and am a tech geek.

Totally agree with this. I've tried a few multi effect pedals and every one falls short of the pedals they are trying to emulate.

Complete pain in the donkey to work with as well Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[BigRedX]

Totally agree with this. I've tried a few multi effect pedals and every one falls short of the pedals they are trying to emulate.

Complete pain in the donkey to work with as well

But are you comparing like-for-like with regards price?

Assuming that the average multi-effects pedal can do at leat 4 different effects simultaneously, then you need to looking at a multi-effects unit that cost at leat 4 times the price of the individual effect pedal.

And then when you add on all the extra features that generally get thrown in for free like programability, tap tempo and MIDI sync of time-based effects, multi-effects nearly always come out better value.

Sonics are completely subjective anyway. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

Hey Dood! Just checked out a couple of reviews and that bit of kit does look good! How low can you go? And what about in dry / single note mode? So in your view better than both the Micro POG and MXR m288?

The Toneprint clearly turns the Sub n' Up into a multi FX, however using a mobile phone to change Toneprint in the middle of a gig? Never felt that was going to be viable - your thoughts?

Now I'm back from the Bass show, I'll see if I can make time to do a quick video. When I spoke to Morten from TC, I ask him how low it goes. He said, "all the way..." So far, he's not wrong lol! I'll give it a good thrashing, but right now, with this bass, I've not encountered a pedal that tracks as low and when it finally does give in, transitions smoothly in to a single note rather than wobble like mad. As I say though, that's an initial test, needs more pounding Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[molan]

But are you comparing like-for-like with regards price?

Assuming that the average multi-effects pedal can do at leat 4 different effects simultaneously, then you need to looking at a multi-effects unit that cost at leat 4 times the price of the individual effect pedal.

And then when you add on all the extra features that generally get thrown in for free like programability, tap tempo and MIDI sync of time-based effects, multi-effects nearly always come out better value.

Sonics are completely subjective anyway.

For sure - if you want something cheap that doesn't sound great and is a hassle to work with then multi-effects are the way to go. . . Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[BigRedX]

For sure - if you want something cheap that doesn't sound great and is a hassle to work with then multi-effects are the way to go. . .

So what would you recommend as individual pedals for the following:

Compressor, distortion, octaver, delay, chorus/flanger, filter/gate.

All must be programmable and MIDI controllable. 128 user memory locations without program mapping (I'll take less if there is full program mapping that allows me to assign the same user program to multiple MIDI programs). The delay needs to have a delay time read out in milliseconds, have tap tempo and MIDI clock sync. The chorus flanger also needs tap tempo and MIDI clock sync. The filter gate needs to be controllable from MIDI note on and off commands. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[EBS_freak]

Before this gets into a big debate, I think it all depends upon what a gig calls for...?

Single pedals are infinitely more tweakable on a gig than a multifx unit... but the digital memories of the multifx units make for more sounds from less devices and without bending down and knob twiddling.

[molan]

So what would you recommend as individual pedals for the following:

Compressor, distortion, octaver, delay, chorus/flanger, filter/gate.

All must be programmable and MIDI controllable. 128 user memory locations without program mapping (I'll take less if there is full program mapping that allows me to assign the same user program to multiple MIDI programs). The delay needs to have a delay time read out in milliseconds, have tap tempo and MIDI clock sync. The chorus flanger also needs tap tempo and MIDI clock sync. The filter gate needs to be controllable from MIDI note on and off commands.

What a ludicrous response 😄 Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[BigRedX]

What a ludicrous response

Really?

Apologies, but I don't always get the subtleties of on-line conversations. So please can you explain to me why this was a lubricous response, because I was being perfectly serious and if there are suitable individual pedals available I'd really like to take a look and listen to them. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Westenra]

So what would you recommend as individual pedals for the following:

Compressor, distortion, octaver, delay, chorus/flanger, filter/gate.

All must be programmable and MIDI controllable. 128 user memory locations without program mapping (I'll take less if there is full program mapping that allows me to assign the same user program to multiple MIDI programs). The delay needs to have a delay time read out in milliseconds, have tap tempo and MIDI clock sync. The chorus flanger also needs tap tempo and MIDI clock sync. The filter gate needs to be controllable from MIDI note on and off commands.

Compressor with MIDI? Can't see why and don't know of any, for the rest;

Distortion - Source Audio aftershock
Octave - HOG/2
Delay - Strymon Timeline, Boss DD, the list could go on
Chorus flanger - Strymon mobius
Filter/gate - Source audio manta Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

Dood - on our interpolated octave pedal discussion, one thought for the mix: the Boss OC2 goes TWO octaves down so perhaps needs to track less far? Does the Sub 'n' Up also provide two octaves down, so we are comparing like with like, or just a single octave down?

[BigRedX]

Compressor with MIDI? Can't see why and don't know of any, for the rest;

Distortion - Source Audio aftershock
Octave - HOG/2
Delay - Strymon Timeline, Boss DD, the list could go on
Chorus flanger - Strymon mobius
Filter/gate - Source audio manta

Fantastic. That's a proper answer.

I'm now off the go and investigate all of those.

For the compressor, simply because sometimes I want something subtle to add a bit of punch, sometimes I want to use it as a noticeable effect, and sometimes I need to turn it off, and I want to be able to do all of those things in conjunction with program changes for the other effects. And the parameters will all need altering to fit in with what the other effects are doing. Does that make sense? Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Westenra]

Fantastic. That's a proper answer.

I'm now off the go and investigate all of those.

For the compressor, simply because sometimes I want something subtle to add a bit of punch, sometimes I want to use it as a noticeable effect, and sometimes I need to turn it off, and I want to be able to do all of those things in conjunction with program changes for the other effects. And the parameters will all need altering to fit in with what the other effects are doing. Does that make sense?

I can see why but when pedal builders design compressors they have a "it's always on" trail of thought as that's what most people do, set it to perfection then never touch it again. The only thing I know that is close is the Source Audio EQ, granted it's not a compressor but it's the only pedal that I could think of which is close.

Source audio have a great set of pedals which are all MIDI compatiable and modular, currently harvesting my fair share of them! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Dood]

Fantastic. That's a proper answer.

I'm now off the go and investigate all of those.

For the compressor, simply because sometimes I want something subtle to add a bit of punch, sometimes I want to use it as a noticeable effect, and sometimes I need to turn it off, and I want to be able to do all of those things in conjunction with program changes for the other effects. And the parameters will all need altering to fit in with what the other effects are doing. Does that make sense?

I used to use compression as an effect as well as a dynamics controller and thus needed that level of adjustment. At the time I had a daft effects rack and the only thing on the market that could do what I want was the TC Electronic Triple-C, a 19" rack mountable & programmable multiband compressor. It was and probably still is brilliant, but, not in a pedal.

For my multi-effects needs and a very simplified set up verses 'those days' I use a TC Electronic G-System. The processor on board could be considered a little long in the tooth by today's DSP standards, but the ability to manipulate endless parameters across a wide range of effect types in glorious 24bit audio makes it a choice I go back to. (You can insert external pedals as part of 4 loops too).

The Zoom B3n as I understand it features a new generation DSP processor and despite it's looks will be very capable at the price point. I'll definitely be reviewing one when I can get my paws on it and then I'll gig it like mad. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353