Al Krow Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Sounds intriguing! What sort of bass is that?! What are the open strings you have set up on it? And what cab copes well with such lows - an 18"? Edited October 4, 2017 by Al Krow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) I think a really good digital octaver (such as the Sub'n'Up) can track down to below the open E string (whereas analogue octavers, with their typically better latency and more natural tone, will generally struggle at the A / G / F# point on the bottom E string). To track down well with minimal latency down to the open E is, of course, ideal for a 4 string player knowing that his or her octaver can follow them all the way down without worrying it's going to be breaking up mid riff. Yup and what's interesting is that for me, although I need the octave to get down that low sometimes, it's not necessarily the most important thing live in the moment. What is isn't that the pedal can't get that actual note but how it treats the signal when it can't reproduce. Something I really liked about the SubnUp full fat - and I've not tried the Mini live yet, is that in Poly mode, if it can't track the note the transition to a 'dry' signal is so much smoother than many pedals I've tried. Now it may just have been the TonePrint I was using or it's the algorithm, but I hardly ever got any warble or those annoying artefacts that you get with analogues. Often people say that an analogue sounds warmer and the latency is less, but you know, I've got a way round that too and it's another reason why I prefer using this kinda pedal. I got the idea from parallel compression where it is possible to fool the ear that there is less compression than there actually is by mixing in the dry signal to take care of the initial attack. The compressed signal can have all of the attack removed entirely but your ear will still hear the impact of the first note. In terms of the Octaver, you know when there's latency when you hear a definite attack in the synthesised sound. So, in SubnUp there's no opportunity to remove the attack using compression, though it would be possible using a wet/dry pedal and a compressor I suppose, so the way I've done it is by masking the attack of the effect. Simply, your ear is more sensitive to high frequencies, so I've used the TonePrint EQ on the SnU to take the top end off the -1 Octave. As far down as 800Hz I think! Then I've added a low mid bump which creates the analogue warmth, or I've removed the very low subby end of things that accentuates the mids. Then, mix it just right and you get a really sweet octave sound which adds body, sounds warm but tracks like a beast! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Yup and what's interesting is that for me, although I need the octave to get down that low sometimes, it's not necessarily the most important thing live in the moment. What is isn't that the pedal can't get that actual note but how it treats the signal when it can't reproduce. Something I really liked about the SubnUp full fat - and I've not tried the Mini live yet, is that in Poly mode, if it can't track the note the transition to a 'dry' signal is so much smoother than many pedals I've tried. Now it may just have been the TonePrint I was using or it's the algorithm, but I hardly ever got any warble or those annoying artefacts that you get with analogues. Often people say that an analogue sounds warmer and the latency is less, but you know, I've got a way round that too and it's another reason why I prefer using this kinda pedal. I got the idea from parallel compression where it is possible to fool the ear that there is less compression than there actually is by mixing in the dry signal to take care of the initial attack. The compressed signal can have all of the attack removed entirely but your ear will still hear the impact of the first note. In terms of the Octaver, you know when there's latency when you hear a definite attack in the synthesised sound. So, in SubnUp there's no opportunity to remove the attack using compression, though it would be possible using a wet/dry pedal and a compressor I suppose, so the way I've done it is by masking the attack of the effect. Simply, your ear is more sensitive to high frequencies, so I've used the TonePrint EQ on the SnU to take the top end off the -1 Octave. As far down as 800Hz I think! Then I've added a low mid bump which creates the analogue warmth, or I've removed the very low subby end of things that accentuates the mids. Then, mix it just right and you get a really sweet octave sound which adds body, sounds warm but tracks like a beast! If you have managed to do all this you really need to "bottle it up" into the Dood Bass Octave Toneprint and get TC to make available to their Sub'n'Up customers? And also make sure you get paid by them and a commission for every DBO Toneprint downloaded? I would be totally up for trading in my analogue octave pedals for a Sub'n'up when the DBO Toneprint goes live. And one less reason to get a Helix, then Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Sounds intriguing! What sort of bass is that?! What are the open strings you have set up on it? And what cab copes well with such lows - an 18"? It's a Shuker Singlecut that I designed with Jon Shuker. It's tuned in standard, F#, B, E, A, D, G, C from 182 to 30 gauge strings. The instrument is an interesting one as it can be set up and played like a Chapman Stick though at the moment it is more suited to standard bass duties. The neck has a pair of truss rods and four specially placed tensioning rods in the neck. Round the back, the heel finishes well after the 24th fret too, so it feels like placing at the 5th fret when you're up at 20. Lots of fun, sounds like a grand piano! When it comes to coping with the low end, well this is something that messes with people's heads a bit. There are practically speaking, no bass cabinets on the market that can deal with the fundamental frequency of the open F# string. Sometimes I'll tune down another tone for E below the normal E string, but I don't know when I'll be gigging that material any time soon. I digress. - So, the only place your gonna get that gut dissolving low end will be FOH out of the subs if that's what FOH want. On stage it's not actually a good idea. If I am using this bass then actually I switch on an HPF to keep the fundamentals out of the equation. It's too messy on stage and can also be a problem with keeping a tight sound, as much as it would be nice to rumble the band mates. The place to concentrate the punch is in the bass (not subs) and low mids which would equate to the usual place to find the note over tones. I also use pickups on this bass that have a spike in the lower treble frequencies that help to pitch definition. Finally my secret weapon (not so secret) is to use my favourite distortion pedal to add a little grit but in a band-pass region. It really brings alive the overtones on those low, low bass notes. Oh I suppose finally, those notes don't get used all the time. Sparingly is the best approach Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) If you have managed to do all this you really need to "bottle it up" into the Dood Bass Octave Toneprint and get TC to make available to their Sub'n'Up customers? And also make sure you get paid by them and a commission for every DBO Toneprint downloaded? I would be totally up for trading in my analogue octave pedals for a Sub'n'up when the DBO Toneprint goes live. And one less reason to get a Helix, then I was actually due to release my own TonePrint for the BH800! - But the chap who used to do all the bass stuff left the company before it was ever released. We made the setting in a hotel room in London full of TC bass gear. It was quite a sight!! - Maybe it's something I could approach TC about again as I chat to them a lot. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E sharp Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Actually Dan . I can do my own Paul Toneprint I can upload for you - CRAP . Crap tone , dodgy timing , and inappropriate use of technique . On to winner I reckon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Actually Dan . I can do my own Paul Toneprint I can upload for you - CRAP . Crap tone , dodgy timing , and inappropriate use of technique . On to winner I reckon Turns out you won't be able to do that, as I've heard that you are an awesome bassist, bang on the money annnnnd I know that you know good tone too. I had seen some of your toys Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dannybuoy Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Dood - another way to hide that sharp attack of the octave up without sacrificing overall brightness is to fade in the attack slightly, something you can do with the POG2 and the new Mooer Tender Pro and Mk2 octavers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Dood - another way to hide that sharp attack of the octave up without sacrificing overall brightness is to fade in the attack slightly, something you can do with the POG2 and the new Mooer Tender Pro and Mk2 octavers. Yes, brilliant, which was what I was getting at with the whole compressor thing above, but I didn't know it was something the POG2 had built in, so that's cool! Cheers Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 The compressors in Helix are brilliant. Very pleased with them indeed. I don’t use octave so I’m the wrong one to ask about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 6, 2017 Author Share Posted October 6, 2017 (edited) £750 depending on where you shop - I bought mine on a 24 month interest free credit when it was just 700 new, so the purchase has pretty much gone unnoticed. Dood the dude, where on earth (or more precisely, Europe) can we (aka Cameron) get a Line 6 Helix for £750?! Andertons are selling for almost double that price! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameronJ Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 (edited) Dood the dude, where on earth (or more precisely, Europe) can we (aka Cameron) get a Line 6 Helix for £750?! Andertons are selling for almost double that price! I doubt I'll be seeing that price for a full fat Helix any time soon, but I regularly see them on eBay/Facebook at around £900 used, which I'd be willing to pay. It's a good saving on a new one. I'd want to know that the warranty is transferable though. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 There's room for both. I've got a huge collection of pedals, but my next purchase is going to be a MOD duo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 I believe Dood has the Helix LT, not the "full fat" Helix. Also there was a recent price hike on the Helix series, but PMT still have the LT for £738 at the minute (full fat version is £1099). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 7, 2017 Author Share Posted October 7, 2017 (edited) I believe Dood has the Helix LT, not the "full fat" Helix. Also there was a recent price hike on the Helix series, but PMT still have the LT for £738 at the minute (full fat version is £1099). Wow! So Anderton's (who I thought were generally price competitive across the board) are looking to charge an additional £320 for the full fat version as compared to PMT?! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigwan Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 (edited) Wow! So Anderton's (who I thought were generally price competitive across the board) are looking to charge an additional £320 for the full fat version as compared to PMT?! I wouldn't take it out on Andertons. The price of the Helix seems to be in a state of flux at the minute! Still sorely tempted by a Helix... Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CameronJ Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 (edited) Still sorely tempted by a Helix... You and me both! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) Dood the dude, where on earth (or more precisely, Europe) can we (aka Cameron) get a Line 6 Helix for £750?! Andertons are selling for almost double that price! Sorry, my bad - I bought the LT for 700. Apologies Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 11, 2017 Author Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) To be fair, Al, my point has always been you not throwing money away on something that you don't actually need as the B3n already has it covered. For example, at least one of your pedals (that costs more then the B3n new) significantly under performs in comparison to some of the equivalent models on the B3n. You know the one to which I'm referring . Nah very much disagree my friend. The B3n is certainly very good and amazing value for money (and will be the last pedal to leave my board) but the Aguilar TLC is a better compression pedal than any of the compression sims on the B3n. It actually does something rather than the relatively puny compression that the B3n manages to deliver whilst trying to do and be everything else. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 Question: in terms of a "single Boss size" pedal is there a multi-fx that is better than the Zoom MS-60B? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) Question: in terms of a "single Boss size" pedal is there a multi-fx that is better than the Zoom MS-60B? There's the Korg Pandora stomp. Worth a look. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 17, 2017 Author Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) There's the Korg Pandora stomp. Worth a look. Interesting - thanks! Seems to have been discontinued (out of stock on both Amazon and no longer stocked by Andertons)? Is there maybe a new model on the way? Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ped Posted October 17, 2017 Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) Interesting - thanks! Seems to have been discontinued (out of stock on both Amazon and no longer stocked by Andertons)? Is there maybe a new model on the way? I'm not sure to be honest, I tried to find out when I was buying a used PX4D recently - it's not very clear but I think the current Pandora is the 'Mini'... they're all kind fo the same though. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swijn Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Question: in terms of a "single Boss size" pedal is there a multi-fx that is better than the Zoom MS-60B? Al Krow, Im probably a little late on this thread... but in relation to your query above i use the Boss GT-10 - the guitar version. I bypass all the amp sims etc and purely just use the effects. My band (PF tribute) requires using some very specific effects - which the GT-10 is more than capable of delivering with easy switching. Having used separate stomp boxes before, i much prefer the convenience of the single unit. Its way way more complex than i will ever need from a pedal, as i just use it as a live tool as and when needed. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Krow Posted October 19, 2017 Author Share Posted October 19, 2017 (edited) Al Krow, Im probably a little late on this thread... but in relation to your query above i use the Boss GT-10 - the guitar version. That's a great pedal but unfortunately about 8 x bigger than what I'm looking for! I'm after something compact but with some excellent sims i.e. the size of single stomp box (to sit alongside 4 or 5 other single pedals in a portable mini rig - I blame Dood "the dude" and Cuzzie for surreptitiously putting the idea of such an unnecessary additional gigging luxury in my head). After the recent firmware update which increases the number of available effects from 58 to 142(!!) the Zoom MS-60B is starting to look very attractive as an option. Kinda ironic as I upgraded from my MS-60B to a Zoom B3n when the B3ns came out earlier in the year. No regrets about upgrading: the B3n is amazing value and a great piece of kit; but it seems I may have been too quick off the mark in moving my MS-60B on! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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