Multi effects pedal vs single pedals

[uk_lefty]

I'm no gear wh0re but I've had a few pedals. Zoom 708 and a few versions of the 506/7 and briefly a Boss multi effect.
In my modest covers band I've been using separates for the quality of sound and because I'm too lazy to learn how to programme a multi effect properly. however I don't have a big budget for pedals and it's easy to waste time and money buying something that either doesn't do the job I want or is for a song that gets dropped quickly.
I'm now looking at adding my zoom 506 to my board to cover sounds I don't have on my board: chorus, octave, auto wah. Where the multi comes in to its own is the combination of effects which I can't do with separates as an on/off. So the zoom 708 had a JacoP sound which was great for my fretless, a distorted wah, there's a flange with echo on my 506 which is good for slap, etc.
The disadvantage for me however, is there are a lot of completely unusable sounds on the multi pedals too, which need to be either programmed out or worked on a lot. I also find a lot of the sounds are artificial in my view and not great in a band setting, again it needs time tweaking which I've never put in. It's my loss if I don't take the time to do that, but then again I don't know if I'll ever reach what I want.

[Left Foot]

So what would you recommend as individual pedals for the following:

Compressor, distortion, octaver, delay, chorus/flanger, filter/gate.

All must be programmable and MIDI controllable. 128 user memory locations without program mapping (I'll take less if there is full program mapping that allows me to assign the same user program to multiple MIDI programs). The delay needs to have a delay time read out in milliseconds, have tap tempo and MIDI clock sync. The chorus flanger also needs tap tempo and MIDI clock sync. The filter gate needs to be controllable from MIDI note on and off commands.

Ha, again, the multi effect pedal you're leading to is very specific and whilst it sounds like all your needs are met, it's not a beginners toy to figure things out. Sound neat thoygh. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[dannybuoy]

Of course if you have requirements like BigRedX, then a multi is the way to go. The other 99% who just need a few usable tones and no presets or MIDI malarkey would be best off with separates!

[BigRedX]

I don't know why everyone is so down on programmability. Even in the days when I was only using a few pedals - filter, distortion, chorus, and flanger, I was always altering the settings on them depending on the song, and trying the get a seamless change-over when I needed to turn more than one pedal on or off at the same time was just impossible. For me programmability and the ability to completely change my sound at the single press of a footswitch couldn't come fast enough and I bought my first multi-effects unit (a second hand Roland GP8) in 1990.

I had a look at the individual units mentioned in the posts above, but only a couple of them really work in the way I would like without needing extra kit to get the full functionality, and I'd still need a MIDI foot controller to run them all from.

TBH live no-one is going to notice that the octave down sound (or any other for that matter) isn't quite as good as it would be from the most suitable dedicated pedal, and in the studio, It'll either be done in the DAW with a suitable plug-in or I'll double track the octave part as a separate take.

[Left Foot]

Big red dood,

No one disputes how handy and plausible multi effects are.

My only observation is that multi effects aren't used properly by beginners as they don't know what they are after or have the breadth of knowledge or requirements you do to validate using them exclusively.

[BigRedX]

My only observation is that multi effects aren't used properly by beginners as they don't know what they are after or have the breadth of knowledge or requirements you do to validate using them exclusively.

I don't get why "beginners" are going to struggle with multi-effects. You never see this kind of advice being handed out on synthesiser forums where since the mid 80s everything has been programmable and the user interface can be a lot less friendly than that of a good multi-effects unit. It's impossible to be beginner synth player and not have to deal with far more complex equipment than the average multi-effects device. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

I'm kinda with Big Red on this one. Surely one of the key points of a multi FX is PRECISELY to let those of us with less experience (and with just a few years gigging with two covers bands, I still very much include myself in that category!) experiment and find out which sounds and effects are going to work for our style and bands, and then perhaps spend significantly more money on dedicated pedals once we've had a decent try out? I'm very much hoping that my purchase of a new Zoom B3n, due to arrive later this week, is not going to be time and treasure wasted!

[dannybuoy]

I'm not against programmability; if I had needs complex enough to require presets then I would probably end up using some kind of multi or a MIDI switcher + separates. But at the level I use, i.e. just one or two pedals on at a time, nothing too complex that would require tap dancing to operate, then I don't want to compromise on tone or the ability to live tweak just to get presets.

You say people would not notice the difference between an dedicated octave down and a multi... well I certainly would, and it would be enough to put me off when playing. I have not found a single decent octave down in anything that Zoom, Line6, or the various apps on iOS have to offer for example, and if you want the synthy sound of a Boss OC-2 style analog octave with no processing delay, analog is your only option. I doubt even the big boys like AxeFX and Eventide would be able to compete there.

Similarly, when it comes to dirt, I am very very picky. I've tried to replicate the tones of my analog overdrives and fuzzes in plugins / apps / multis, and have not been able to get anywhere near satisfactory.

Ultimately it comes down to your needs and a balance between how many sounds and presets you need vs how fussy you are about your tone.

[uk_lefty]

I don't know why everyone is so down on programmability.

For me it's the time and ease of use and the way the manuals are written. I was eighteen I think when I bought my zoom bfx708 and never understood how to do much to change the order of the different effects, e.g. put the sound of F4 next to A1, or tweak the parameters. I kept that pedal for years and even as a graduate with some very very poor pc programming skills I couldn't work it out. I bought a decent Boss multi effect and had the same issue. I expect now you can hook them up to a pc or iPad and tweak things more easily but I'm just guessing. A good YouTube video on how to reprogramme the pedals would be a godsend and would make me think about going back to the big Boss unit.
I do agree with you, a good and well programmed multi effect would be ideal live for portability and the DI out etc. but I do feel that the multi effects lack a bit of authenticity in sound. Then again if you're playing somewhere that the soundman is just giving you a subterranean and rumbling sound, as you say, who would actually notice? Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[BigRedX]

You say people would not notice the difference between an dedicated octave down and a multi... well I certainly would, and it would be enough to put me off when playing. I have not found a single decent octave down in anything that Zoom, Line6, or the various apps on iOS have to offer for example, and if you want the synthy sound of a Boss OC-2 style analog octave with no processing delay, analog is your only option. I doubt even the big boys like AxeFX and Eventide would be able to compete there.

Programmability doesn't necessarily rule out analogue effects. I still use a Roland GP8 in my guitar rig, which is a mixture of digitally controlled analogue (was, auto-wha, compressor, distortion, overdrive, phaser and EQ) and pure digital (delay, chorus and flanger) and it works very well too! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Left Foot]

I don't get why "beginners" are going to struggle with multi-effects. You never see this kind of advice being handed out on synthesiser forums where since the mid 80s everything has been programmable and the user interface can be a lot less friendly than that of a good multi-effects unit. It's impossible to be beginner synth player and not have to deal with far more complex equipment than the average multi-effects device.

Hey now, no need to start chatting about synths (!) and although I get your point I don't think the principle is transferable. When do bass players need to sound like something else? Synths are far more complex in scope and replicate thousands of sounds from piano to pan pipes to farts. Mid and Top range synths can cost an absolute fortune, so to recap: OP inquired if a Zoom MS-60B could come close to a Boss OC-2. You later pointed out that its not a like for like comparison. OP then said he will simply use multi-effects to explore the effects range and then get dedicated pedals. That's when I basically said its a waste of time: why not get cheap effects pedals and see what you wish sounded better and the effects you simply didn't care for.

Like I've said, many people on basschat effects forum started with multi-effects and move away from them. There's always the potential for bassists to come back to them when they figured their approach out more and have the aptitude to sit and program their MS-60B to sound as close as they can get to a OC-2.

EDIT: it doesn't matter as OP has made a purchase one I hope they have fun using and take their bass playing and enjoyment to the next level. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[BigRedX]

Personally I think that the synth comparison is vey valid. As a synth player from an era where programmability was only for those with record contracts, I couldn't wait long enough for the technology to become affordable for the ordinary player. And I'm not talking about the complex synths of today but something simple with a single oscillator and envelope generator.

There's probably more controls on a relatively modest 4 pedal set up then there is on a Roland Juno 60, but no-one in their right minds would have picked the original Juno 6 over the Juno 60 with it's programmable memories unless they they really couldn't afford the small extra amount the 60 cost.

For me it's the same with effects. As soon as you have more than a couple, it's a complex system and programmability is a boon. I couldn't see myself ever going back to individual pedals unless I had a dedicated road crew to move the extra gear I would need. Before I got my Roland GP8, my individual non-programmable effects collection required a 14U rack to hold them all, and a chunky cable snake for all the foot pedals to control them.

The other thing to bear in mind is that sound is completely and utterly subjective. The OC-2 might be technically better on paper to the octaver on the Zoom, but in the end it's what they both sound like to OP's ears that matters. I've made the mistake in the past and upgraded to something with a supposedly superior sound quality only to find what I really liked was the "grunginess" the inferior model gave the sound.

Sound-wise there is no right answer, so I'll stick with programmability because of the convenience it adds.

[jimfist]

@BigRedX

My thoughts exactly! Thanks for saving the forum another long-windbag post from me. 😉 LOL

Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

Still waiting for the Zoom B3n to arrive! My gigging amp is a Markbass AC combo (which is generally great) so in addition to a decent octaver, I'm hoping that the B3n is going to have a reasonable valve emulator to "warm up" the Markbass tone...again I may be expecting way too much here and may need to think about a dedicated valve preamp pedal or valve emulator pedal to get that warm valve sound?

[dannybuoy]

Unless the tech has moved on significantly you may find those particular things lacking...

The B2 had a decent slightly dirty tube preamp model but I could not find anything similar in the B3 (or the fx list for the B3n) - there are lots of amp models and distortion pedals but not a basic tube pre. The Darkglass B3K / B7K models sound very promising though - but they are not what I'd choose for a warm valve sound. I've had to fall back to analog stuff like the Bearfoot Blueberry, VT Bass and Aguilar Tonehammer for that.

The octavers in the Zoom units I've had were all terrible in my opinion, in terms of both tone and tracking.

Here are the effects bundled: https://www.zoom.co.jp/sites/default/files/products/downloads/pdfs/E_B3n_FX-list.pdf#overlay-context=products/bass/b3n-multi-effects-processor

[Kev]

For me, a good multi effects pedal is a very good thing indeed, providing you are comparing like for like. Comparing a Zoom multi with a standalone boutique pedal for example is just plain daft, their RRPs are practically the same!! Try comparing with Fractal/Eventide etc.

That being said, I have never found any kind of dirt sound that could compete with analog pedals. Otherwise, if anything digital wins out pretty much all other categories for me.

[Al Krow]

Thanks both. Ok its's sounding like for the two key effects I am looking for (octave and warm valve emulation) I am going to need to consider getting dedicated pedals and then use the B3n as a (somewhat expensive!) tuner and more occasional [tremolo / synth / chorus / phaser / flanger / delay] pedal. And then suddenly going from zero to 3 pedals, I should probably add a decent compressor as a fourth pedal to keep the overall sound in good order?

Dannybuoy - with regard to the VT bass pedal for that warm valve sound, I'm assuming you are referring to the Tech 21 VT bass v2 and not the Tech 21 VT bass DI? Also, I came across a comment that when the "character" is dialled up on the VT bass to get that warm SVT tube amp sound, there was a loss of low end? You experienced anything like that?

[dannybuoy]

Either pedal would work, the standard VT or the DI. The character control is a midrange boost before the clipping stage - it doesn't affect the lows, but I can see how some would say that since cranking it makes your tone very bright and clanky!

Btw, the compressors on the Zoom aren't bad at all.

Wait until you get your hands on it before reserving judgement. The BB Preamp model is probably the best place to start for a warm overdrive. You can also coax warm drive sounds out of a B7K if set carefully so try that too!

Edited March 25, 2017 by dannybuoy

[Al Krow]

The Zoom B3n has just landed! My old MS-60B is about to be boxed up (been promised to a nephew who is a budding bass player). Really looking forward to diving into the new pedal and seeing what it can do.

[radiophonic]

I wonder what a multi effect unit would be like if it cost as much as some of the boards I've seen posted on here! Some individual dirt pedals cost as much as a Zoom.

Personally though, I prefer real switches to menus and if I need to adjust a delay parameter because the guitar payer has started the intro too fast and I have 3 bars to guess a the right adjustment, under stage lights, I'd rather just a have a rotary pot in front of me. I don't use tonnes of effects and i'm happy to have spent my money on a decent and bomb proof multi-band compressor plus a small number of other boxes whose parameters I fully understand. Our guitar player uses a multi and he's happy to concede that my board is more transparent sounding than his, but he thinks the convenience is worth it. I think he'd benefit from a less generic overdrive sound, but he'd need three different OD pedals so maybe he has a point. YMMV.

[jimfist]

I wonder what a multi effect unit would be like if it cost as much as some of the boards I've seen posted on here! Some individual dirt pedals cost as much as a Zoom.

Personally though, I prefer real switches to menus and if I need to adjust a delay parameter because the guitar payer has started the intro too fast and I have 3 bars to guess a the right adjustment, under stage lights, I'd rather just a have a rotary pot in front of me. I don't use tonnes of effects and i'm happy to have spent my money on a decent and bomb proof multi-band compressor plus a small number of other boxes whose parameters I fully understand. Our guitar player uses a multi and he's happy to concede that my board is more transparent sounding than his, but he thinks the convenience is worth it. I think he'd benefit from a less generic overdrive sound, but he'd need three different OD pedals so maybe he has a point. YMMV.

The new series of ZOOM products (the G5n, G3n, B3n) are designed to function just like individual stomp pedals (3 available at once on the B3n, and up to 7 total by scrolling left and right across the virtual signal chain). They're really easy to tweak in live performance just as you describe: (in STOMP mode) reach down, grab the knob for the parameter you want to tweak, and done. In stompbox mode, there is no menu-diving, buried parameters, or multiple pages to navigate when you have the 3 "virtual pedals" showing on the multiple screens.

Now that they've got the B3k/B7k modeled along with some other new drives and improvements, it makes the B3n a real consideration, even if you only find just a few effects that really float your boat. I think this pedal is going to surprise a lot of people, honestly, even if it is just for a couple of effects. JMHO. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[BigRedX]

I wonder what a multi effect unit would be like if it cost as much as some of the boards I've seen posted on here! Some individual dirt pedals cost as much as a Zoom.

Personally though, I prefer real switches to menus and if I need to adjust a delay parameter because the guitar payer has started the intro too fast and I have 3 bars to guess a the right adjustment, under stage lights, I'd rather just a have a rotary pot in front of me. I don't use tonnes of effects and i'm happy to have spent my money on a decent and bomb proof multi-band compressor plus a small number of other boxes whose parameters I fully understand. Our guitar player uses a multi and he's happy to concede that my board is more transparent sounding than his, but he thinks the convenience is worth it. I think he'd benefit from a less generic overdrive sound, but he'd need three different OD pedals so maybe he has a point. YMMV.

Any decent multi-effects unit will have a tap-tempo function which is by far the easiest way to ensure your delays are in time with the tempo of the song; and something that is notable by its absence on a lot of stand-alone delay pedals. Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353

[Al Krow]

Had fun over the past week working through the 75 presets on the B3n. It is a revelation in terms of usability compared to the MS-60B I previously had.

I've culled the selected effects down to 14 of my favourite patches which I could conceive of using in my bands' sets. I decided that live scrolling is going to be made easier if I include an "empty" slot in each bank of 3, so that works out as 7 banks used. [And plenty available for use]. The patches I've selected to keep include 4 distortion / drives, 4 bass synths and an assortment of others (e.g. octaver, tremolo, flange). There is no way I would have had space (or budget) for such tonal variety on my modest pedal board with dedicated pedals.

The user friendly interface also means I'm looking forward to (and no longer feeling daunted by) rolling my sleeves up to design patches that are closer to what I had in mind e.g. for tremolo, chorus and delay.

So where I am landing is that for the relatively novice pedal user such as me: don't bother with the budget end (e.g. the MS-60B) but get a half decent multi fx (e.g. the B3n) which can open up a world of tonal variety and fun!

Edited April 28, 2017 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

Ok I'm really gonna have to stop gushing about just how much of an improvement the B3n is over the MS-60B, but I've just discovered the aux in and headphones out on the B3n (not there on the MS-60B) which means I can use that I can play in stealth mode to my heart's content....

[Swijn]

Had fun over the past week working through the 75 presets on the B3n. It is a revelation in terms of usability compared to the MS-60B I previously had.

I've culled the selected effects down to 14 of my favourite patches which I could conceive of using in my bands' sets. I decided that live scrolling is going to be made easier if I include an "empty" slot in each bank of 3, so that works out as 7 banks used. [And plenty available for use]. The patches I've selected to keep include 4 distortion / drives, 4 bass synths and an assortment of others (e.g. octaver, tremolo, flange). There is no way I would have had space (or budget) for such tonal variety on my modest pedal board with dedicated pedals.

The user friendly interface also means I'm looking forward to (and no longer feeling daunted by) rolling my sleeves up to design patches that are closer to what I had in mind e.g. for tremolo, chorus and delay.

So where I am landing is that for the relatively novice pedal user such as me: don't bother with the budget end (e.g. the MS-60B) but get a half decent multi fx (e.g. the B3n) which can open up a world of tonal variety and fun!

Good stuff & enjoy !! Edited March 27, 2019 by Dad3353