Bands that don't practice

[mcnach]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1487841633' post='3243362']
Oh dear, I was in a grumpy mood when I last responded to this I Just felt the OP's frustration.

A couple of people have picked up on some things I said. I think I was the first person to mention contempt for the audience which others have repeated. For me standing up in front of an audience is still something special, my 'contract' with them is to do the best I'm capable of, never to say 'oh well that was good enough, the audience won't notice'. I'd be the first to say there are people way better than I am, whose half committed efforts would surpass my bass playing by quite a distance but I still think it is disrespectful not to do your best.

Ambient made the points about the quality of the musicians and the difficulty of the music and there have been plenty of comments about not needing rehearsal for gigging the same songs you did last week. All true of course but most of those bands will have rehearsed at some time in the past.

There's a balance between rehearsal, personal practice, regular gigging and the skills of the musicians. There's no point in rehearsing if people haven't learned their own parts at home, you can't stitch things together if they are full of holes. There's no point in rehearsing stuff you are already on top of and did last night. Better musicians may need less rehearsal, though I suspect they are better because of lots of practice. Simple songs need little work other than perhaps the starts and finishes. Sometimes for weekend warriors you have to reach a practical compromise between music and the rest of your life.

But, I don't suppose any of us couldn't improve what we do with a little bit of intelligent time together in a rehearsal room. Sure the Rolling Stones would have been rehearsing in session men, staging and lighting and so on but shouldn't we all if we can?

It's OK for me, I enjoy any time together with freinds making music and I enjoy the social side but I don't buy the claim that 'me and my mates are so good nothing could be improved by rehearsal' either. The rest is just about compromising between what you need to do and the practicalities of how to achieve it.

As for the OP I think with a new band member I'd want to have a run through, just to check starts, ends and any odd bits of arrangements rather than do that in front of an audience, if at all possible.
[/quote]

nice post, and to me, you hit it: balance. Different situations/people call for more or less of the various bits involved.

I think we tend to see "our way" of doing things as generally the better way, subconsciously, even if deep inside we really know that it's just what we came to through circumstances and it's works for us... From that point of view, this thread offers an interesting place to see how different people favour different approaches and have different goals.

I didn't like the implication that not wanting to rehearse, or rather not wanting to rehearse *in excess* was showing contempt for the audience. I enjoy live playing immensely. We're nothing really without that audience, and I value them A LOT. Which is why I resented being told (not personally, I know, but by association) that I don't care or look after my audience. The thing is we probably have different ideas of what *in excess* actually means.

For me, rehearsals are not for learning the songs (assuming covers, or at least a recorded version of some sort that you're supposed to learn). I don't like my rehearsal time being taken up by showing people how a song goes. They should have done their homework, just like I did. You can learn it all by yourself. THEN rehearse together to ensure it all works fine, by all means.

I've also been in a situation where a band has a pretty static setlist and they rehearse every week over and over and over the same songs. Look, if they're not getting better by the time you've played them 20 times, they never will, at least not if all you do is play them again exactly like last time. Unless you're going to add more songs... kill rehearsals and just gig the thing. Many times. I find those rehearsals a waste of my time, and I don't have a lot of time so I'd rather spend it on something else.
If there's a problem with a song because the drummer keeps getting a part wrong, or I do, or whatever... then the answer is not having the whole band go through it again and again, rehearsal after rehearsal. The drummer (or me) have to get it right by himself. Homework! When he can do it, then we rehearse and tweak if/when necessary. I've had sessions just bass and drums when we needed to nail something tricky together... that's homework. When we get it right then we involve the band. Similarly there used to be brass meetings where they worked out their harmonies etc... and afterwards they brought it to the band and alter when/if needed.

A rehearsal has to have a goal, and if the goal is not achieved then either you need to reassess your goals or then rehearsal is not the correct approach to achieve that goal. In a situation where time is not limited, I'd care a lot less... because I enjoy playing, it's something I do largely for fun (even if there's money involved, I could not live from it alone). But that's not where I am.

I'm not a great player, but I'm confident and know that within my limits I'll be alright and don't need a lot of time to catch up. Years ago I wasn't as confident and my limitations were far bigger... in those days rehearsals were more important for me. I suppose the need for them, and what you need them for depends too on your level of experience, not your 'virtuosity'.
People need to do the hours playing with others, I guess... through rehearsals, through gigs... to build up their confidence and their 'band skills' [1]... so probably the people who require fewer rehearsals have simply done more hours (nothing to do or imply one is better than the other, just different places to be).

[1] band skills: most of us probably know some guy who can play al the techniques and play really complicated stuff, but drowns in a band setting, purely because he never plays with other people and he's used to perfect sound quality in his home setup. There's no substitute for playing with others. Hours. And. Hours. And play with a variety of people, or we get too used to their idiosyncrasies. Variety gets your skills in shape better.

[TimR]

Many people just like the idea of being in a band. They're not actually interested in gigging. These are the bands that just rehearse and always find something not quite right. They'll say they want to gig and discuss endlessly how to get them but no one ever goes out and gets one.

I've learned to spot them quickly avoid them now.

I suppose there's the opposite end of the spectrum where no one wants to practice and only want to gig. I've depped in bands like that, it's a bit disconcerting when they don't even provide you with a set list to prepare for, there's no way they're going to meet up beforehand to run through the set.

"It's all standards, you'll be fine."...

I guess if that's not for you then move on.

I'm not playing with drummers who "play like it's the last time they're going to get their leg over" either.

[radiophonic]

I'm playing this weekend. I mailed the guitarist for a set list and didn't recognise the last song. Don't worry, he said. It's only 4 chords and 2 of them are D. I think this means they are all majors of some sort. It's an arrangement of a folk song that I don't have an original title for. It'll be fine, I'm sure, but I don't know when I come in, when the drums come in or how long it is. I'm assuming it's in 4/4 or 3/4 but even that is unknown, as is the tempo. I've written a part based on rapidly fingerpicked bass chords, but this is total guesswork and if it doesn't fit, I'll need to invent something on the spot.. Sometimes a [i]little[/i] more practice would be nice. It's in the set for Tuesday too, so I suppose I'll know how it goes by then.

[blue]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487848751' post='3243464']
Many people just like the idea of being in a band. They're not actually interested in gigging. These are the bands that just rehearse and always find something not quite right. They'll say they want to gig and discuss endlessly how to get them but no one ever goes out and gets one.

I've learned to spot them quickly avoid them now. [/quote]

Agreed, if you join a band with no gigs on the books and no history of gigs it's a good bet they're not going to get any sort of consistent bookings.

Blue

[mcnach]

[quote name='radiophonic' timestamp='1487857984' post='3243595']
I'm playing this weekend. I mailed the guitarist for a set list and didn't recognise the last song. Don't worry, he said. It's only 4 chords and 2 of them are D. I think this means they are all majors of some sort. It's an arrangement of a folk song that I don't have an original title for. It'll be fine, I'm sure, but I don't know when I come in, when the drums come in or how long it is. I'm assuming it's in 4/4 or 3/4 but even that is unknown, as is the tempo. I've written a part based on rapidly fingerpicked bass chords, but this is total guesswork and if it doesn't fit, I'll need to invent something on the spot.. Sometimes a [i]little[/i] more practice would be nice. It's in the set for Tuesday too, so I suppose I'll know how it goes by then.
[/quote]


but that's not really about rehearsing or not... I don't expect you are a telepath!
If you're not even told exactly what it is that you'r supposed to be playing you cannot really rehearse it either. What you're doing is preparing to increase your chances at guessing right on the day. And that, while it can be fun, is not a serious way to operate.

[TimR]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1487881606' post='3243913']



but that's not really about rehearsing or not... I don't expect you are a telepath!
If you're not even told exactly what it is that you'r supposed to be playing you cannot really rehearse it either. What you're doing is preparing to increase your chances at guessing right on the day. And that, while it can be fun, is not a serious way to operate.
[/quote]

You should play some jazz gigs.

I've played gigs where I've never heard the tune before. Chord chart, watch, listen and pray.

[mcnach]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487888865' post='3244011']
You should play some jazz gigs.

I've played gigs where I've never heard the tune before. Chord chart, watch, listen and pray.
[/quote]


But at least you'd know it was the correct chord chart, right? (I hope so!)

I've never played Jazz. The closest I've had to your experience was when I went for an audition without knowing anything they played (I asked for recordings but they said not to worry and just come along... their description intrigued me enough to show up).
They gave me a wad of A4 sheets with lyrics with chords written on top, they had a brief chat (while I scanned through the chords of the first song to get a sense for the structure) and away we went. By the third song I was starting to enjoy that, but needless to say, I didn't play my best, and the songs were cool and funky but pretty easy so not quite the same as playing Jazz. Also it wasn't a gig, so there was no pressure in that respect.

I enjoyed being pushed a bit, and in my main band we have a little improvisation from time to time (typically following the second string breakage of our very good but very energetic rhythm guitarist)... sometimes it's not great (but it never lasts long so we get away with it) and sometimes it's pretty good, and I enjoy it, but I really want to know what we're going to play in advance.

[tauzero]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487888865' post='3244011']
You should play some jazz gigs.

I've played gigs where I've never heard the tune before. Chord chart, watch, listen and pray.
[/quote]

My audition for a ceilidh band consisted of turning up to a gig and playing (they did ask me to). No chord chart, just got told the key for each tune, and not only was it a genre I'd never played before, I'd never heard any of the tunes before either. They decided to keep me.

However, the rock covers band I've just joined is of the same mind that I am - get the songs polished with me in, get gigging (target is 20-30 gigs a year), rehearse if there are things wrong and to bring new material in.

steantval said 45 songs seems like overkill. My covers band that has just folded had around 50 songs, and we wanted to increase that a little more. It means we could choose the 25-30 songs we fancied doing for that gig, rather than (like a club band I used to be with) playing an identical set at every gig for over ten years.

[radiophonic]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1487881606' post='3243913']
but that's not really about rehearsing or not... I don't expect you are a telepath!
If you're not even told exactly what it is that you'r supposed to be playing you cannot really rehearse it either. What you're doing is preparing to increase your chances at guessing right on the day. And that, while it can be fun, is not a serious way to operate.
[/quote]

Once through the chords and I'll watch the drummer's shoulder for my 'in'. I still think I have less chance of screwing up than in a well rehearsed band with a bad drummer (based on extensive experience of the latter, unfortunately).

[TimR]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1487923622' post='3244107']


My audition for a ceilidh band consisted of turning up to a gig and playing (they did ask me to). No chord chart, just got told the key for each tune, and not only was it a genre I'd never played before, I'd never heard any of the tunes before either. They decided to keep me.

However, the rock covers band I've just joined is of the same mind that I am - get the songs polished with me in, get gigging (target is 20-30 gigs a year), rehearse if there are things wrong and to bring new material in.

steantval said 45 songs seems like overkill. My covers band that has just folded had around 50 songs, and we wanted to increase that a little more. It means we could choose the 25-30 songs we fancied doing for that gig, rather than (like a club band I used to be with) playing an identical set at every gig for over ten years.
[/quote]

Function bands are a different kettle of fish entirely. I used to have a pad of 100+ tunes that we could call on depending on the audience demographic.

Pub Rock, I have memorised about 50 fairly basic, mostly 3 chord wonders. There are a few that needed some rehearsing to get to a good standard but I think if we had put our minds to it we could have learned 3 songs to gig standard in one rehearsal.

The problem is getting everyone to put their minds to it. In previous bands it's easier if the client has requested a specific tune, it focuses the whole band, although usually we would read the music for a one off and do a couple of run throughs at sound check.

.

Edited February 24, 2017 by TimR

[mikel]

Its Jazz, and as my tenor sax playing brother in law says..."Its Jazz, there is no such thing as a wrong note."

[chris_b]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1487933874' post='3244256']
Its Jazz, and as my tenor sax playing brother in law says..."Its Jazz, there is no such thing as a wrong note."
[/quote]

. . . . just poor choices!


The last time I told this story Bilbo nearly threw his Zimmerframe across the room!

I was asked to do some gigs with a Jazz piano trio. I said OK, knowing I didn't know any Jazz tunes. hey it was a paying gig. One piece of advice I was given a few years before worked a treat. [i]Never hit the same note twice in a row. If you do you've made a pattern and it can be right or more likley, wrong. Use different notes and you're either playing the right note, a harmony or a passing note[/i]. I guess this is ancient dance band philosophy and it's pretty close to Victor Wootens, [i]You're only a semi tone away from the right note[/i], but it worked for me. Turned the volume down, bass full up and set up on the other side of the drums and no one noticed. I did that gig for about 4 months.

[bassace]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1487933910' post='3244257']


. . . . just poor choices!


The last time I told this story Bilbo nearly threw his Zimmerframe across the room!

I was asked to do some gigs with a Jazz piano trio. I said OK, knowing I didn't know any Jazz tunes. hey it was a paying gig. One piece of advice I was given a few years before worked a treat. [i]Never hit the same note twice in a row. If you do you've made a pattern and it can be right or more likley, wrong. Use different notes and you're either playing the right note, a harmony or a passing note[/i]. I guess this is ancient dance band philosophy and it's pretty close to Victor Wootens, [i]You're only a semi tone away from the right note[/i], but it worked for me. Turned the volume down, bass full up and set up on the other side of the drums and no one noticed. I did that gig for about 4 months.
[/quote]

Yes, there are still a few bass players around like you, doing jazz gigs. Unfortunately.

[chris_b]

That was one time only, but needs must.

Do you blame me, the trio or the genre?

I'm not apologising as it paid the rent and kept me going until a proper gig came up.

[sprocketflup]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1487888865' post='3244011']
You should play some jazz gigs.

I've played gigs where I've never heard the tune before. Chord chart, watch, listen and pray.
[/quote]

My keyboard player has been known to say to me during set up for a gig "Do you know such and such a tune?" "Nope, never heard it" "Right well its in E flat minor and I think you should play this line ** suggests incomprehensible combination of notes** "

and then we play it live at the show. Bit scary, but keeps you feeling alive

[bassace]

I've had a new tune thrown at me with the pianist saying 'plays itself' and generally you can see which way the chords go.

When I started I played in a jazz quintet that was reasonably well organised. Often when playing a a club for dancers the two tenors at the front would segue through a series of standards and while one was playing the other one would hand me a handwritten book of chords, open at the next tune. I learnt most of my standards that way. I still get the odd one come up that I've never heard before and most often it's a great discovery.