Talk to me about monitors please

[Phil Adams]

So we are rehearsing in a small chapel shaped old building. Good acoustics. Weve recently got a young, very loud drummer and I'm struggling to hear myself properly.
Currently I'm using a GK MB500 Fusion to which I connect a 2 x 10 cab and I line out into the low gain input of an Ashdown 130w blue face combo. I found that at the volume needed to match the drummer, the 2 x 10 was distorting a bit.
Were not talking stadium volumes, nothing uncomfortable, just fairly loud (and satisfying!).
Last week I tried with the 2 x 10 on a chair facing me and it was vastly improved in terms of hearing myself, but I lost volume going forward.
The ancient PA is just for the vocals, so can't monitor off that. I really fancy a "proper" kickback monitor, and was tempted by the Hartke ones, but I'd need to line out from the bass head to it, the chap Ive just spoken to at GAK reckons you shouldn't do that because the line out is an amplified signal. Anyhow, it would mean taking 3 cabs with me to rehearsals, overkill? Did I mention that I'm half deaf anyway!!!

Any thoughts friends??

Thanks

[markstuk]

What about using in ear headphones?

[Phil Adams]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1487762886' post='3242502']
What about using in ear headphones?
[/quote]

What would you use as a source?

[markstuk]

you've got a line out from your amp? Then plug that into something like [url="http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/LD-Systems-MEI-ONE-2-Wireless-In-Ear-Monitor-System/"]http://www.gear4musi...Monitor-System/[/url] The LD unit I have will send a mono signal to both ears, but worth checking with whatever unit you might look at..

You almost certainly want to replace the earphones with something that fits a little better, but still allows ambient noise through..

Edited February 22, 2017 by markstuk

[Naetharu]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1487762886' post='3242502']
What about using in ear headphones?
[/quote]

+1 to this if you can get it working.

My band purchased a cheap mixer, and then we all run into that with a DI, and it comes through the headphones which makes hearing the mix when Animal from the Muppets is playing the drums much easier.

I believe that the whole thing cost us around £180, which split between everyone in the band was pretty much an easy purchase. I'll check with my guitarist where he got it from if you want.

[Phil Adams]

Thanks gents. Looking into this, does it feel odd having them in yer luggholes??

[Happy Jack]

You feel a bit 'detached' at first, but you quickly get used to that.

What I found unacceptable was the amount of faffing about that was involved with routing the cables where they don't get in the way of you or your bass, plus taking off and putting on the bass. Doesn't sound like much, but if you're used to putting your bass down for a minute while you take a close look at the PA settings or whatever, it quickly becomes an issue.

Reading your original post, it might make more sense to buy a more general-purpose unit that can offer solutions to a bunch of different problems, including some you may not yet have bumped into.

I have a Studiomaster PAX12 powered wedge. Essentially, it's a simple single-box mono PA. At different crisis points in my gigging life, it has been used as a vocal PA, a guitar combo, a bass rig, a foldback monitor, and the main output for a set of Roland electronic drums. It's a classic Jack-of-all-trades unit, and remarkably competent at all of them.

[markstuk]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1487768997' post='3242604']
You feel a bit 'detached' at first, but you quickly get used to that.

What I found unacceptable was the amount of faffing about that was involved with routing the cables where they don't get in the way of you or your bass, plus taking off and putting on the bass. Doesn't sound like much, but if you're used to putting your bass down for a minute while you take a close look at the PA settings or whatever, it quickly becomes an issue.

Reading your original post, it might make more sense to buy a more general-purpose unit that can offer solutions to a bunch of different problems, including some you may not yet have bumped into.

I have a Studiomaster PAX12 powered wedge. Essentially, it's a simple single-box mono PA. At different crisis points in my gigging life, it has been used as a vocal PA, a guitar combo, a bass rig, a foldback monitor, and the main output for a set of Roland electronic drums. It's a classic Jack-of-all-trades unit, and remarkably competent at all of them.
[/quote]

wireless is the only way to go.. beltpack and headphone cable under the t-shirt...You're then completely free to do what you want with the bass...

Edited February 22, 2017 by markstuk

[Phil Adams]

I'm afraid that I share the feelings of HJ on this. Might sound daft, but I do feel that there would be a feeling of isolation. If you had a wedge, you can alter the position, or the volume, or change where or how you stand depending on what you "want" to hear. I reckon with in ears you're stuck with what you get. If the whole band came through the PA it would make infinite sense to my mind to have in ears, but just to hear your own "awful" playing it seems a bit like overkill.
I will, howvever, give headphones a shot at the next rehearsal just to get some sort of feel for how it would sound (with zero expenditure!)
Eden do a 2 x 10 wedge which they refer to as multi purpose, with headphone sockets, 4 channels etc etc and Andertons have it for a little over 200 snots!

Edited February 22, 2017 by Phil Adams

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Phil Adams' timestamp='1487770147' post='3242627']
I'm afraid that I share the feelings of HJ on this. Might sound daft, but I do feel that there would be a feeling of isolation.
[/quote]

Its no different in this respect to wearing normal ear plugs (only with better sound quality and definition).

[stevie]

I don't get all this advice to buy monitors, headphones, in-ears, wireless etc. Am I missing something? If you can't hear yourself in your small practice room, the problem is with your backline. Stick your 2 x 10 on end on top of your combo so that one of the tens is as close to your ears as possible. It also sounds like you'd benefit from a more powerful 2 x 10 - or a complete rethink on your speakers.

[Japhet]

Wot Stevie said above.

[Phil Adams]

Think you're right Stevie.
Like I said in ears makes good sense it all the band are connected to the PA. Interesting though, to get other players takes on the issue. I would like a dedicated floor monitor, but that seems like overkill in my situation.
I'll try different configurations on what Ive got and take it from there.

Thanks

[Japhet]

You could try standing 15 feet away from your cab as well. You'll hear it better than being right on top of it.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

IMO, get a matching 2x10, stack them vertically. Getting the upper cab close to your ears will make it easier to hear yourself, and if you don't have PA to cover the room then you probably need more than one 2x10 anyway.
I can't picture where the Ashdown fits into your setup.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[Phil Starr]

Hmmm, your hearing is poor and you are turning everything up to hear what you need? I'm concerned about how this will end up for you.

I understand the appeal of loud sound but if you are genuinely 'half deaf' you don't want to move to being 70%, you'd have to give up playing at that point. Your young drummer needs to learn to play more sensibly at rehearsals and to save it for the gig, he probably lacks control but lighter sticks will help as will damping the skins.

The other thing is that your ears are probably trying to protect themselves from further damage, there are tiny muscles inside the middle ear which contract at high sound levels, this reduces the energy transmitted to the inner ear but is frequency dependant so you also lose the ability to discriminate and sounds end up a bit muffled. One way round this which is counter intuitive is to get some musicians ear plugs, the ones with the holes down the middle, that turns everything down and I find emphasizes the bass. You'll find you can pick things out better with the right sort of plugs in and it will protect your hearing. It's a lot cheaper than just increasing the number of speakers.

[Phil Adams]

Sorry to mislead you. I'm not that deaf, though I'm clearly not 100%. We aren't talking about huge volumes, no headache after rehearsal or anything, no overload of the ears.
All I wanted was to be able to hear myself better either by rearranging what Ive got, or by adding something. The loud drummer is great, no problem hearing him, just myself.
But I'm grateful for you very valid concerns.
Simply my 2 x 10 seems to overload quite easily. It's a Hartke but has Neo drivers in it, bought from this very boutique a couple of years ago. I can't find the thread that tells me just what's in it. Light enough, but perhaps that's the root of my problem.

[Dood]

My solution, as your GK is a capable amp, would be to add a second 2x10 cabinet, or even a 4x10 to the mix. This would serve well to get the volume up better than adding more amplifiers. Having one of each would mean you could have a 2x10, a 4x10 or a 6x10 configuration for all eventualities.

That said, I'm a massive fan of IEMs, so going that route is also very favourable, especially as you'll be able to keep the levels much lower in your lug-oles

[pete.young]

[quote name='Phil Adams' timestamp='1487762669' post='3242499']
the chap Ive just spoken to at GAK reckons you shouldn't do that because the line out is an amplified signal.

[/quote]

He's kind-of right. The Line Out signal is at a line-level voltage, and I think you might do better to put it into the Ashdown Effects Loop return.

I'll add my voice to the 'quieten down the drummer and buy another 2x10' crowd.

Edited February 22, 2017 by pete.young

[redbandit599]

I use a GK MB Fusion 500, one 112 for practice and 2 for a gig. Plenty of volume in both scenarios- I'd look at your cabs. Loud drums, two guitars, playing rock.

[bassace]

Phil Jones Earbox?

[stevie]

Chocolate teapot?

[Phil Starr]

Hi Phil, funny how you feel closer to somebody with that name.

Really you 'ought' to be able to hear perfectly well with a 2x10. I gig with one and in a room with up to 200 people everyone can hear the bass perfectly well. Being neo should mean your speakers are more likely to be louder rather than quieter. It simply makes stronger magnets, though so many factors come in that there is plenty of overlap in performance with ceramic magnet speakers.

I'd say the perfect way to use these is back against a wall and leaning so that they point at your ears. A £15 stand will arrange that though it means your amp will slide off. Raising it onto a chair will lose you some of the bass reinforcement having it on the floor gives so you could end up boosting the bass and running into distortion. Back against the wall means the bass is boosted even more so you can turn down the bass and use more of your speakers power. If the amp/speaker combination isn't loud enough I wonder about your eq. Room acoustics are so important, are you using the same eq you use for personal practice at home? Cutting bass and boosting mids will help you cut through anything and allow you to turn up without distortion. Sorry if that is teaching you to suck eggs.

I didn't take your half-deaf statement literally and 70% hearing loss was meant to be a joke, but if you play in a band you will have some hearing loss. It isn't what most people think, you don't lose sensitivity largely you lose frequencies as you selectively damage tiny areas of your inner ear each time you are subject to a loud noise event, those areas don't grow back. Eventually enough frequencies are lost that it is harder to separate sounds in noisy environments even if you hear a pin drop in quiet times. you can check your hearing here if you have a decent set of headphones https://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/look-after-your-hearing/check-your-hearing/take-the-check.aspx


Your 2x10 can reach peaks above 120dB, that will be as loud or louder than the drums, anything over 100db will damage your hearing in a fairly short time the HSE say 15mins http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/priced/hsg260.pdf That is about the level you are probably currently rehearsing at so any increase in volume will cause hearing loss. Honestly I think you should investigate using in ears or decent earplugs (not the solid foam ones), getting a little more out of your 2x10 or even getting everyone to turn down. If not you will get permanent hearing loss.

[Phil Adams]

Thanks for the words Phil. Ive been using the 2x10 on the floor pointing forward beside the Ashdown, and tbh the Ashdown sounds the better device. The 2 x 10 (having checked back) has a pair of 250 watt EBS drivers, and I bought it to go with the GK head with the intention of it being all I'd need, but the reality seems to come up a bit short. I added the Ashdown into the mix as it was something I already had, and was in the first instance aimed at the drummer to help him hear me, (not the same drummer as now I might add). SInce he left, I turned the Ashdown forward.
My hearing loss goes back to childhood. I never did have good hearing, I burst an eardum when I was a kid, painful, and years of working machinery, listening to music (I saw the Who live in 1979 at Wembley) and riding Harley Davidsons with open face helmets have done the rest. I don't consider playing bass has added anything significant to that loss.
I'm rehearsing tomorrow, to put a comple spin on things, I'm going to use my "big" rig, the one I save for gigs. Old GK 2x10 and 1x15 cabs with a Yorkville 400w head. I'll get the 2x10 up as close to me as practical, and see how I go with that.
It's all a bit political you see, the smaller stuff I am allowed to keep at home (under duress) but the big rig I keep at work and only drag it out for gigs (last one 18 months ago since we've been struggling with drummers).

[bassjim]

I appreciate the thing with the loud drumming, its part of your vibe, but...........try a couple of tunes with hot rods. Ask your drummer just to suck it up just to see what its like volume wise.

Then after that see if going louder is what you need. In other words, post effectively did that improve the situation or not really. (this for rehearsals only BTW)

Some rooms just dont get on with every thing turned up at full boar. Our drummer uses a thing called Fat Snare. Its like a film the size and shape of a snare drum that you place on top of the snare. Makes a huge difference at rehearsals and gigs. I dont know if this is its primary purpose but it kinda acts like a volume control for the snare. As in makes it a bit quieter.

I use just a 1 x 12 cab at rehearsals and can be the loudest thing in the room but thats also partly because everyone in the band respects the fact that high unnecessary volume in a small space doesnt work for anyone. Plus the room we use to rehearse has been treated acoustically with that foam stuff on every wall. We are louder an most gigs, but we have a rehearsing volume and a gig volume. Gig volume is very manageable and if its a big do we go through a PA, but mostly backline is great.

Adding another 2x10 stacked or otherwise will make you louder and give you much more presence as your amp will be pushing out all it has on offer. If you are going for volume then it is going to be louder, and you will hear yourself much better. Maybe its what you want but the IEM will solve it as well.

Its looking like lot of expense for you because one guy is too loud? On the other hand if 2 cabs floats your boat then its solved getting decent headroom at gigs?

As others say, what ever you do, you only have one set or ears to play around with.....

Edited February 23, 2017 by bassjim