PA advice needed

[sshorepunk]

Hi

I need some PA advice

After many years of playing in the same band, I parted company with them last year and have embarked on my own little project, utilising a some of the musicians who also left the band I was in (there must have been a common denominator, and it wasn’t me )

So, I’m out on my own and needing some PA advice
The band is playing mainly funk and soul (Stax etc) and some ska
Guitar, bass, drums, sax, vocals with the option to add a trumpet of the gig calls for it
Venues range from small bars to large hotel function rooms

I will be using a Behringher X air XR18

I have a couple of Mackie subs which I think will provide a good start point, they are Mackie SWA1501

So I need tops for these, Mackie SRM 450 look like a good and well used option, but it doesn’t take much to go bigger with the 550 or even 650 range

Last band I was in used the Alto 2x12 on the Alto subs, the subs weren’t much use, but the tops seem to function fine for the price, they also look like they make decent monitors

I’ve been looking at active speakers with 1000w class D amps

I see brands like EV, RCF, HK, but have no experience of any of the other brands out there
So what other options are there, any opinions and advice would be greatly appreciated

Cheers

Tony

[Phil Starr]

Those three are all good brands, also consider Yamaha, JBL, QSC K12's. Of all these, and I've auditioned them all, my current favourites are the RCF's. Get along to PMT or somewhere with a range and take along some decent recorded material and try them out. Concentrate on those that do the best vocal sound, any lack there will affect your bands sound most of all, you are doing PA not disco!

Don't obsess over 1000W, mainly that is advertising hype, the amps in question can usually only achieve peaks of that level, which does help at cleaning up the peaks but that is all. Few 12" drivers are going to be able to handle more than 300W continuously and the difference between 500W and 1000W is barely noticeable. Most PA speakers will specify their maximum sound levels and anything over 128dB is going to be enough for most bands.

Mackie used to be the go to PA speaker, they've fallen out of fashion since they stopped using RCF drivers and moved production to China. There are rumours of reliability problems but I've no direct experience of that. I'd go for the RCF's or K12's, Yamaha stuff is pretty bomb proof and a lot of people like them a lot. I just didn't think they did vocals as well as the RCF's.

Hope that helps, you'll get plenty more opinions.

[EBS_freak]

Phil has some good advice.

You didn't state budget, but RCF are sweet for vocals and my favourite "main stream" brand before going into the silly money brands.

From the RCF point of view...

RCF ART 312 is pretty much the equivalent to the SRM450. The 312 are going to see you fine - they'll be a nice match with your subs.

If you can stretch, you may want to consider something from the 7 series - specifically the models they do with the larger voice coils in the high frequency horns. Having a larger vc in the horns, give you a better vocal, and allows for a lower crossover to get more headroom out of the larger driver (the woofer). Result is clearer vocals and box that can give you more oomph without losing the vocals. 732s are great. If you can go up to the 735 or 745, you can pretty much do smaller venues without the subs as they will take kick and bass with no trouble. The 735s or 745s with subs will be very loud and hardly breaking a sweat to deliver a nice smooth, clear sound. Nothing worse than a over pushed PA to mess up your ears. These larger VC HF are RCF's secret weapon in the 7 series - you normally only get 3inch VCs in the highs in more expensive wooden boxes and in the case of the 745, the 4inch VC in the FH horn is normally reserved for the pro PA. The fact they have put these drivers in lightweight plastic boxes pretty much makes them unbeatable compared to the competition.

If you are looking for big boxes that can mean you can do smaller gigs without sub support, you should check out the Yamaha DXR15s too - but I guarantee the vocals won't be a patch on the RCFs mentioned above.

RE: Mackie reliability - yes, there were numerous power amp troubles when they changed the components... and the drivers sound a lot more harsh than the MK1s - which were probably the best edition of the SRM450 Mackie put out. They've sorted the power now but the driver tone is still the same.

As Phil says, you'll get loads of opinions... but go and check them out and see what fits your budget. But what I will say, is stay away from line array stuff for a band... unless you start looking at the likes of K-Array... (Even then I still think the array system is flawed for smaller venues and like for like money wise, I would wager the boxes would perform and sound better... Arrays need big venues!).

[sshorepunk]

Thanks for the advice, although I've played in bands for many years, this is the first time I'm leading a project, so having to look at more aspects than I normally would

Cheers

Tony

[sshorepunk]

Just off for a look at PMT as I've got man flu, so off work!

A few options have come up

QSC K12, chasing a pair of those, also a local seller has a complete HK audio power pack, but with the L5 115 tops, also a pair of L5 115 tops are up for grabs close to me. And theres also a pair of RCF 722A. These are good used options, reasonably close to me

And just working out an arrangement of Lady Day and John Coltrane, tune!

Tony

[Chienmortbb]

I am not sure of the model but the Mackie Thump 16s we have been using for open mic recently were not good (post RCF?). These were replaced with a pair of Alto that were great for vocals. However at another open mic night we used a Blue Acoustic M2 system (think Bose broomsticks with proper speakers on top) Without doubt the best portable system I have ever played through. [url="http://blue-acoustic.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/M2-System-Data-2017.pdf"]http://blue-acoustic...m-Data-2017.pdf[/url]

Edited March 20, 2017 by Chienmortbb

[sshorepunk]

Looks like I'm gonna now go for rcf 735, the bigger voice coil has a lot of appeal
745 would be nice but will kill the budget
T

[Owen]

Sorry to derail the thread slightly, but while we have PA bods attention can I ask another question? I run the PA at church (qumix 32 + HK audio Elements system). The Elements system suits what we need just fine for downstairs but the balcony is raked seating and the elements have a super tight dispersion. When you are sitting in the line of fire then it is all good, but if you are higher up the tiers then the detail gets lost. I am thinking of putting in some standard plastic boxes for upstairs with a broader hf dispersion. They do not need to be beefy because the HK subs will do the heavy lifting and I presume that I can do an HPF and a slight delay on seperate outs on the qumix (cos it does everything else). Can anyone suggest a suitable cab?

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='owen' timestamp='1491138537' post='3270742']
Sorry to derail the thread slightly, but while we have PA bods attention can I ask another question? I run the PA at church (qumix 32 + HK audio Elements system). The Elements system suits what we need just fine for downstairs but the balcony is raked seating and the elements have a super tight dispersion. When you are sitting in the line of fire then it is all good, but if you are higher up the tiers then the detail gets lost. I am thinking of putting in some standard plastic boxes for upstairs with a broader hf dispersion. They do not need to be beefy because the HK subs will do the heavy lifting and I presume that I can do an HPF and a slight delay on seperate outs on the qumix (cos it does everything else). Can anyone suggest a suitable cab?
[/quote]You don't give details of the size of the space or a budget. EBS freak is probably more up to date than I am but the obvious solution is to get further E435 Elements tops and as you suggest run them off the appropriate delay. If not then just go for one the smaller plastic boxes the RCF 308 suggests itself [url="http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/art-7-series/art-708-a-mk-ii"]http://www.rcf.it/en...art-708-a-mk-ii[/url]

Edited April 3, 2017 by Phil Starr

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='Chienmortbb' timestamp='1490004174' post='3261317']
I am not sure of the model but the Mackie Thump 16s we have been using for open mic recently were not good (post RCF?). These were replaced with a pair of Alto that were great for vocals. However at another open mic night we used a Blue Acoustic M2 system (think Bose broomsticks with proper speakers on top) Without doubt the best portable system I have ever played through. [url="http://blue-acoustic.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/M2-System-Data-2017.pdf"]http://blue-acoustic...m-Data-2017.pdf[/url]
[/quote]

Hi John, the Thumps are Mackie's cheap and cheerful versions of a PA speaker, my experience is that they don't sound any worse than other cheap and cheerful speakers and I've heard acoustic acts sounding OK through them but you can't turn them up too loud before the cheap bass drivers overload, I suspect they don't have great Xmax. Efficiency isn't great either so the temptation is to push them too hard. I do know of bands using them successfully as floor monitors where feedback limits the power you can use anyway.

[EBS_freak]

I'm with Phil - good choices there. The uniformity of the HKs would be good from a visual aspect - but I'm not sure how their - what looks to be - proprietary mount works.

With churches, there's a lot of consideration as just putting speakers in - how are you going to mount it? How are you going to get the cables there... powered, passive?

[Owen]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1491205572' post='3271115']
You don't give details of the size of the space or a budget. EBS freak is probably more up to date than I am but the obvious solution is to get further E435 Elements tops and as you suggest run them off the appropriate delay. If not then just go for one the smaller plastic boxes the RCF 308 suggests itself [url="http://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/pro-speaker-systems/art-7-series/art-708-a-mk-ii"]http://www.rcf.it/en...art-708-a-mk-ii[/url]
[/quote]

Getting more Elements is one way to go but the dispersion pattern is so tight that as soon as you move your head above or below the actual speaker you lose the detail of the sound. Obviously the bulk of the sound is still there, but the detail which make it a listening experience which does not require work if you have any sort of hearing issue is missing. When we put them in I never imagined they would be that tight. I know that this is how they work but I, naively, thought "it cannot be than focussed". The rake on the seating in the balcony is quite severe so really it is only 3 rows out of 10 who are getting the sound I hoped everyone would get and this would mean getting four more E435 tops + amps and that turns into a lot of expense. I was thinking RCF 308 but was canvassing a broader opinion.

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1491210708' post='3271158']
I'm with Phil - good choices there. The uniformity of the HKs would be good from a visual aspect - but I'm not sure how their - what looks to be - proprietary mount works.

With churches, there's a lot of consideration as just putting speakers in - how are you going to mount it? How are you going to get the cables there... powered, passive?
[/quote]

Active would be a whole lot easier than passive as there is one less thing to turn on. At the moment everything goes on with 2 plugs and this makes it easy for people who are "OK" at sound but do not actually grasp the whole picture to run the rig. It is not a building which is 900 years old and needing complete architectural subtlety so mounting them is not a huge issue.

Thanks y'all!

[Phil Starr]

using a line source like the HK's can be good in a church or any echoey building. The problem with announcements in stations for example is down to poor control of sound direction with lots of confusing echoes each with a different time delay. They radiate as a big flat fan getting wider as you get further back but it might be down to a matter of trial and error mounting them to get the most audience coverage with the least echo. The usual method is to take advantage of the fact that sound levels drop off as you get further back from the speaker. Mounting them high and angled down gives you better coverage, pointing them at the middle of the intended audience rather than the people at the front helps. The sound loss of not being directly in line at the front is compensated for by being so close to the speakers. Without seeing the building of course it's not possible to be specific.

Remember the RCF's or any other horn based speaker is going to be directional too. You can probably find the dispersion angles for the horns for most PA speakers (the RCF is 90x70 which is quite wide). Often they may be described as long, short or medium throw. If you can sketch out a scale drawing of the building it should be possible to find out what the ideal pattern would be and find something to match. The other trick is to have two speakers, a short throw (wide dispersion) to cover the front seats and a long throw pointing at the rear seats, though this may be unnecessarily complex and expensive.

I hope this is reasonably clear and helps to give you some things to think about when choosing.

[sshorepunk]

Well I ended up with a pair of top of the range EV's with 15" drivers
Only used them on their own, not hooked them up to the Mackie subs, but they work great on their own, so I suspect it will be a Big sound once paired with the subs
Just getting my head round the behringer AR18, which is excellent
fortunately our guitarist did his degree in music production, this is proving useful, he knows his stuff!

Tony