walplayer Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='Rich' post='311995' date='Oct 22 2008, 12:46 PM']It strikes me that both secular (especially political) and religious songs fall into two camps. There are those that are very up front with their message, right from the first line it's "BLAM this is what I've got to say and you're going to feckin well know it", a lyrical message you couldn't miss if you tried. And then there are . The sort of song where you don't even know you're listening to a political or religious message until you think about it afterwards.[/quote] Don't forget to include the alleged "backwards messages in songs " type too!!!Remember those?!Judas Priest,Rush etc. I suppose it's down to interpretation unless the writer of the song confirms it though......Like i thought the posts by the author of this topic,especially the second one about teenagers being safer at christian rock gigs could be seen as a subtle way of "spreading the word"/recruiting ,but he's confirmed it wasn't.... Johngh has the right approach about it imo. No need to stuff it down ppl's throats.........(no sexual pun responses plz! ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walplayer Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='312152' date='Oct 22 2008, 02:54 PM']Can anyone suggest some more contemporary, non-gospel religious music to check out? It'll have to be on youtube - no way am I buying this stuff! Its a short step from there to buying a ranch in Waco.[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='312091' date='Oct 22 2008, 01:58 PM']Please read my response again, I did not iterate as fact, nor did I state it in such an extreme manner as you are making it out to be. It happens to be my opinion on many songs, maybe it shows a lack of ability to relate to some of the things that people sing about in songs? I don't know. But I didn't say I didn't like secular music. I happen to have a vast collection of music, and worship music isn't my most listened category. Again, you appear to be misconstruing what I said. I was talking about [i]some[/i] secular music (I used the word 'most' and I stand by that as my opinion), I did not say that [i]all[/i] secular music was like this, or that I consider all secular music to be like this. Moreover, I said nothing about excluding arts because they are secular or don't carry a message that I agree with or understand. Mark[/quote] i know it is your opinion and not fact, I understand that but since when were opinions sacred and not to be questioned? Anyway, not sure if he would call it 'christian' but he's a freind who is a christian and just released his album for free so go download it if you want. its free! [url="http://download.chrisspring.com/"]http://download.chrisspring.com/[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skankdelvar Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I've only ever heard religious stuff on Songs of Praise. I find the contemporary stuff a bit Lloyd Webber. Might sound better without the inevitably ploddy drums. The only God stuff I ever really liked was 'The Count Bishops'. As regards the OP, wouldn't know, haven't been there, couldn't say. I expect a lightning bolt would fry me the second I went through the door. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) [quote]i know it is your opinion and not fact, I understand that but since when were opinions sacred and not to be questioned?[/quote] I am totally happy to entertain a discussion about our differences of opinion, in the hopes of perhaps learning something from each other or even reaching a common understanding. But, to be honest, you didn't respond to my opinion, let alone bring it up for discussion or question it. Your post read stuff into it that was [i]totally[/i] extremising what I'd said, and you reacted as if I'd stated it as fact. I don't see how that is in any way fair or in the interest of discussion. Mark Edited October 22, 2008 by mcgraham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 mcgraham, can you point me in the direction of some decent contemporary, non-gospel music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='312223' date='Oct 22 2008, 04:00 PM']mcgraham, can you point me in the direction of some decent contemporary, non-gospel music?[/quote] anyone??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Over there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Well, as it seems I've got to put a disclaimer on anything I say in this thread, so... Personally, I find that unless lyrics have some cohesiveness or a story I can reasonably follow more or less from start to finish, I tend to lose interest in the lyrics and pay attention to the underlying music. Unfortunately for me a lot of contemporary music, at least in Britain, is built on pretty poor lyrics, and the underlying music is not much better (again, IMO). So, I turned to more or less totally to instrumental music. Joe Satriani is a big personal favourite, Hiromi is also good, Laurence Cottle, Guthrie Govan, Brett Garsed, Charlie Hunter, Barber (particularly the Excursions) etc. I listen to a fair bit of jazz but if it sounds good I'll listen to it. Stuff with lyrics, some of you may cry 'hypocrit' but I like some of Van Halen's work, the Eagles (Wasted Time is a beautifully crafted song IMO), Dream Theater, Mr. Big. However, only certain songs of the artists with lyrics appeal to me. I'll look through my iPod and fish some out for you. Mark DISCLAIMER: this is just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassmandan Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='312247' date='Oct 22 2008, 04:11 PM']anyone???[/quote] I've always quite enjoyed [url="http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=36052381"]Delirious?[/url]; and although the current selection on their myspace doesn't particularly support this, I've often felt they have a fair level of secular appeal and bridge the gap quite nicely..... even if they try just a little bit hard to sound like U2! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='LukeFRC' post='312179' date='Oct 22 2008, 03:17 PM']i know it is your opinion and not fact, I understand that but since when were opinions sacred and not to be questioned?[/quote] Thats one of the privileges of being Religious. You can criticise a chef/artisit/musician/author/TBBC/scientist without a second thought, and by the way, all of those people are very much alive, so they can actually take that critiscm to heart, whereas you dare question something which has no physical means of feeling or communicating or really any sense of existence at all. You dare question because alot of the time the only answer that will be thrown your way is "The Bible is proof enough of God, it was written by him through his hand picked disciples..." etc... An appearance on Jeremy Kyle would suffice as solid proof if he/she/it exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Anyone remember the Cro-Mags? They were a hardcore band from the 80's, the vocalist was Harley Flannigan and they were Hare Krishna's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='312264' date='Oct 22 2008, 04:23 PM']Well, as it seems I've got to put a disclaimer on anything I say in this thread, so... Personally, I find that unless lyrics have some cohesiveness or a story I can reasonably follow more or less from start to finish, I tend to lose interest in the lyrics and pay attention to the underlying music. Unfortunately for me a lot of contemporary music, at least in Britain, is built on pretty poor lyrics, and the underlying music is not much better (again, IMO). So, I turned to more or less totally to instrumental music. Joe Satriani is a big personal favourite, Hiromi is also good, Laurence Cottle, Guthrie Govan, Brett Garsed, Charlie Hunter, Barber (particularly the Excursions) etc. I listen to a fair bit of jazz but if it sounds good I'll listen to it. Stuff with lyrics, some of you may cry 'hypocrit' but I like some of Van Halen's work, the Eagles (Wasted Time is a beautifully crafted song IMO), Dream Theater, Mr. Big. However, only certain songs of the artists with lyrics appeal to me. I'll look through my iPod and fish some out for you. Mark DISCLAIMER: this is just my opinion[/quote] Sorry, I meant Christian music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William James Easton Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='MacDaddy' post='312281' date='Oct 22 2008, 04:35 PM']Anyone remember the Cro-Mags? They were a hardcore band from the 80's, the vocalist was Harley Flannigan and they were Hare Krishna's.[/quote] as were Shelter/Ray Cappo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='312223' date='Oct 22 2008, 04:00 PM']mcgraham, can you point me in the direction of some decent contemporary, non-gospel music?[/quote] I have a couple of CD's by these band's which have some good tracks on them. Switchfoot - [url="http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=en&q=switchfoot&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#"]http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=e...4&ct=title#[/url] DC Talk - [url="http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=en&q=switchfoot&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#q=dc%20talk&hl=en&emb=0"]http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=e...hl=en&emb=0[/url] Verra Cruz - [url="http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=en&q=verra%20cruz&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#"]http://video.google.co.uk/videosearch?hl=e...a=N&tab=wv#[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fumps Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 (edited) [quote name='mcgraham' post='312264' date='Oct 22 2008, 04:23 PM']Well, as it seems I've got to put a disclaimer on anything I say in this thread, so... Personally, I find that unless lyrics have some cohesiveness or a story I can reasonably follow more or less from start to finish, I tend to lose interest in the lyrics and pay attention to the underlying music. Unfortunately for me a lot of contemporary music, at least in Britain, is built on pretty poor lyrics, and the underlying music is not much better (again, IMO). So, I turned to more or less totally to instrumental music. Joe Satriani is a big personal favourite, Hiromi is also good, Laurence Cottle, Guthrie Govan, Brett Garsed, Charlie Hunter, Barber (particularly the Excursions) etc. I listen to a fair bit of jazz but if it sounds good I'll listen to it. Stuff with lyrics, some of you may cry 'hypocrit' but I like some of Van Halen's work, the Eagles (Wasted Time is a beautifully crafted song IMO), Dream Theater, Mr. Big. However, only certain songs of the artists with lyrics appeal to me. I'll look through my iPod and fish some out for you. Mark DISCLAIMER: this is just my opinion[/quote] Can i ask a quick question on this subject. although you can ignore the lyrics in the first place why complain about the lyrics? I only ask because i love writing lyrics & i have a strong belief that not everything Has to be a master peice thats all Edited October 22, 2008 by fumps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hit&Run Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Sorry to take things off topic for a second... [quote name='yorks5stringer' post='311373' date='Oct 21 2008, 03:38 PM']"I don't know where ALC is in Bradford" It's in Wapping, if you are stood outside Canal Road Tescos it is the massive modern building right up on the hill looking towards the Leeds Road area: in fact I've just looked out my office window in the centre of Bradford and can see it from here too![/quote]It's the big, grey, double warehouse saying 'Abundant Life Church' in neon purple. A past parishoner told me it was built as a warehouse so if the church 'folded', the warehouse would offer more 'development opportunities' (ie sell easier) than a 'traditional' church building. It's a thriving business at the moment, and hence it's recent expansion into a mini citadel. [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='311377' date='Oct 21 2008, 03:41 PM']Has it got one of those "progressive" vicars who wears a leather jacket and smokes weed and stuff? I love those! They usually get caught shagging the 17 year old daughter of one of the parishioners.[/quote]The 'vicar' is (surprise surprise) self appointed, and has a [i]penchant [/i]for sports cars which are parked in the grounds of his palatial dwelling. He got in trouble a few years ago for filming a promo video in which he wore sunglasses, a leather coat, and was brandishing a (replica?) MP5 machine gun. Also, other churches in the area question how much 'Christian' work the ALC do, you'd be hard pressed to find any of them doing a soup run, or a jumble sale for Christian Aid week. We've all seen Genesis' [i]Jesus He Knows Me [/i]video, and IMO the ALC parishoners are getting fleeced in the most appalling way. Even if charity does start at home. Slightly more on-topic: I saw some of the MOBO awards the other week and they have a Christian/Worship category. A lot of the clips I saw sounded & looked like straight-ahead chart-fodder. I'd never heard anything like it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARGH Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='312247' date='Oct 22 2008, 04:11 PM']anyone???[/quote] Christian music,that DOSENT have a happy clapper vibe Trouble...A Doom metal band from Chicago,been going since 84 Count Raven...Swedish,in same genre of the above...depending whos written the song. The Black Peppercorns (Kinda Christian R.E.M...so that could be hell on the ears) King X,VERY VERY VERY Good Rock Band,kinda the flagship for 12 string Hamer Bass users everywhere....very very musical trio,without walking into the Prog Genre Mortification...Surprisingly..DEATH Metal....(No I dont know how that works either) USA Believer,Thrash..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='Hit&Run' post='312464' date='Oct 22 2008, 08:18 PM']The 'vicar' is (surprise surprise) self appointed, and has a [i]penchant [/i]for sports cars which are parked in the grounds of his palatial dwelling.[/quote] If you are the founder and originator of something, it's hardly a surprise if you're "self-appointed." I'd also like to see your referenced source for the "sports cars in his palatial dwelling" comment. [quote name='Hit&Run' post='312464' date='Oct 22 2008, 08:18 PM']He got in trouble a few years ago for filming a promo video in which he wore sunglasses, a leather coat, and was brandishing a (replica?) MP5 machine gun.[/quote] In fact, it was part of a tongue-in-cheek "Matrix" style promotional video for a men's prayer meeting that was given the usual "Won't somebody think of the children" treatment by the media looking for a story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='312212' date='Oct 22 2008, 03:53 PM']I am totally happy to entertain a discussion about our differences of opinion, in the hopes of perhaps learning something from each other or even reaching a common understanding. But, to be honest, you didn't respond to my opinion, let alone bring it up for discussion or question it. Your post read stuff into it that was [i]totally[/i] extremising what I'd said, and you reacted as if I'd stated it as fact. I don't see how that is in any way fair or in the interest of discussion. Mark[/quote] Surely if someone has an opinion which they think to be true, to them it is a fact? If you make a statement of belief, i.e. "I would call most secular music as being style over substance", surely you see it as fact or you would not make the statement. The point it is a opinion (a belief held by one person) rather than a scientific style 'fact' (a belief held by the majority) is therefore irrelevant. I'm sorry if I appeared to react harshly, I wrote my dissetation on this subject so I get a bit passionate about it. I think possibly I was questioning more the framework of your opinion rather than the opinion itself which is why you feel I didn't respond to your opinion. As far as I understand it a differentiation of sacred and secular spheres of life is not found in orthodox christian theology. There isnt sacred music and secular music, there is just music. The next question is 'is it good music', and I would err that good music (and all arts) has an element of (small t) truth to it, or an intelligence that points to a knowledge of that truth. For instance I would think that there is a personal or observed truth in yellow by coldplay, or idiot wind by dylan, or romeo and juliet which makes it good art. In the same way i dont find the same level of truth in, for instance, 'stop' by the spice girls. I see a risk in "Christian societies" to bring in some sacred/secular ideology where what is sacred is essentialy good and that that isn't is bad. This leads to Christians being unable to engage with culture and therefore the world. The idea you suggested that is that worship songs as they are in some 'sacred sphere' "the content carries a lot more weight" is the same idea. anyway gone to see Guthrie Govan in chelmsford? it was my local hang out as a teenager. My tupence on Matthew 6:5-7. Jesus is making a comment on the manner of what religion is. He attacks folk who stand to pray on street corners because the reason they do this is to appear good before other folk. He is saying the thing that matters is how you appear before God in your prayers so go away and do it where you cant be seen. An equivalent would be someone going and spending £4k on some amazing 60's fender so they can appear cool when they turn up at the bass bash, yet cant play. Go away into your (practice)room and practice your scales and theory and get tight with your band cos thats what makes you a bass player. tBBC, i quite like sometimes: [url="http://www.myspace.com/davidcrowderband"]David Crowder Band[/url] [url="http://www.myspace.com/mumfordandsons"]Mumford and sons, (which may not be christian at all, who cares? its good!)[/url] [url="http://www.myspace.com/chrisspring"]Chris Spring (who is an old friend so i am biased)[/url] and [url="http://www.myspace.com/simonbradingmusic"]simon brading who I expect no one to like (and I dont a lot of the time) but is the sort of stuff i play at church every now and again.[/url] right thats enough, im off to play bass. (i hear theres a secret chord that will please the Lord! the forth the fifth then i think it is a minor followed by a major..........? ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosebass Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 This is all very good but I still get the impression that after a gig they wouldn't be into "back to mine" and "lets get leathered" and sort the worlds ills out. I have to put up with weird young American Guys in suits knocking on my door telling me that Jesus cared for me....they are not the best PR for you "normal" Christians. If you enjoy your music fine....but please don't try to explain to me why I should like it, thats almost as bad as a bloody hippy ranting on about Dylan.... Each to their own.....I like Prefab Sprout but don't tell anyone..... And if you want to discuss things over a JD or two then you are welcome back at mine. I think we should all be more tolerant, and also realise when things are said in jest , to provoke comment , or just to take the piss....if you can't stand the heat...etc etc... I shall have no more say on this but heres some more Christian Lyrics for ya all.... When the right time come, some a go charge fe arson. When the right time come, Lord, some a go fe murder. "When the law man come, some a go run till dem tumble down. When the parson come, him a go quote de scripture. Swallow field a go be in a, yeah, battlefield. Yeah yeah Natty Dread will never run away, no no no . . . "praise the Lord and pass the ammunition".....now who said that...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 [quote name='ARGH' post='312470' date='Oct 22 2008, 08:26 PM']King X,VERY VERY VERY Good Rock Band,kinda the flagship for 12 string Hamer Bass users everywhere....very very musical trio,without walking into the Prog Genre[/quote] Doug Pinnick from King's X has renounced Christianity - apparently his Christian peers were less than understanding when he came out as gay. So I guess that puts paid to that one. The way I see it, as an ex-Catholic (now with beliefs somewhere in-between agnosticism, humanism, Buddhism and pure physics), is, if God is out there somewhere, then apparently he gave us the capacity for creativity, so, on that basis, all music is a celebration of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 [quote name='Prosebass' post='312678' date='Oct 23 2008, 01:57 AM']This is all very good but I still get the impression that after a gig they wouldn't be into "back to mine" and "lets get leathered" and sort the worlds ills out.[/quote]Yeah, but neither am I... not the 'getting leathered' bit anyway... and I'm atheist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 [quote]Can i ask a quick question on this subject. although you can ignore the lyrics in the first place why complain about the lyrics?[/quote] I didn't complain about them, I didn't say that I think they should change or that they're crap etc. I said that I often find them hard to follow, and those that I do follow are lyrics that tend not to hold my interest for very long. It was like that even before I was a Christian. That's all, maybe that says more about me than the music.If you are the founder and [quote]originator of something, it's hardly a surprise if you're "self-appointed." I'd also like to see your referenced source for the "sports cars in his palatial dwelling" comment.[/quote] +1 I would too. I will speak to my fiancee about the exact details of ALC origin. [quote]Surely if someone has an opinion which they think to be true, to them it is a fact?[/quote] I would disagree. Case in point: I don't like bacon, I dislike the taste. The fact is not 'bacon is unlikeable and it tastes horrible', the fact is 'I do not like bacon, I dislike the taste'. [quote]The idea you suggested that is that worship songs as they are in some 'sacred sphere' "the content carries a lot more weight" is the same idea[/quote] I'm sorry, but I really feel you are reading alleged 'facts' into something that was little more than me stating why I rarely listen to lyrics in contemporary songs, but why I find myself listening to the lyrics in worshipful songs. Put it this way, I listen to anything that comes on, and I listen as long as I can. If it doesn't make sense, I stop trying. If it does make sense, but I find the content boring, I stop trying. If it does make sense, and I find the content interesting, I will attempt to relate to it. If the content is something that is important to me, particularly if it's a song that is intended to help me worship God, then of course I'm going to relate to it and choose to listen to it and respond accordingly. But I treat all songs similarly, worship songs are not exempt from scrutiny just because they're 'worship' songs. They're written by people, and therefore can be poorly or weakly written. Being about God doesn't make them instantly beyond qualification as a 'good' or 'bad' song. I hope that clarifies a few things. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDaddy Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 (edited) [quote name='mcgraham' post='312746' date='Oct 23 2008, 09:24 AM']the fact is 'I do not like bacon, I dislike the taste'.[/quote] and this rather than any religious beliefs, is why I could never trust your opinions Edited October 23, 2008 by MacDaddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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