Christian Rock

[mcgraham]

[quote]and this rather than any religious beliefs, is why I could never trust your opinions[/quote]
I know I know, I've tried my best to like it. On top of that, I'm marrying a vegetarian!

dlloyd, prosperity theology, i.e. health, wealth and prosperity gospel, is a bit of a concerning area, particularly in the States. I can completely see where any of you are coming from if that's all you've seen of Christian speakers/churches/movements etc. However, I have attended ALC a number of times and have many friends there, I have seen [i]nothing [/i] that comes close to prosperity theology at ALC, something which I have witnessed to some extent.

Mark

[BigBeefChief]

That bloke at the Abundent Life Centre definitely looks dodgy.

Very cult-ish.

If religion/God was so great, why do they need to recruit? All they do is prey on the vunerable in society (hookers, the homeless, drummers etc).

[yorks5stringer]

"All they do is prey on the vunerable in society ": shouldn't that be "pray"?

[BigBeefChief]

GROAN.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='312830' date='Oct 23 2008, 11:16 AM']I'm sure the ALC do a lot of very good work, ........

[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/3197605.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yo...ire/3197605.stm[/url]
[url="http://blog.01274.net/index.php?c=Main&e=ViewPost&postId=225"]http://blog.01274.net/index.php?c=Main&amp...&postId=225[/url][/quote]

Yeh!:

"ALC is a giving church. Just recently a £52,000 gift was given to a brilliant thing in the US working among the dregs of society there. Every year £1000s are spent on gifts, especially at Christmas. We are actively giving clothing and food to people who need it. Here is an article from back in 1998 on the church giving money for the new building: Super Sunday!, £600,000 given from the church, £160,000 of which came from the leaders. For some it meant "handing over £15,000 and for others £20. And about 100 children pooled their pocket money to give £1,000." There was that gift to help keep Bradford FC alive a while back (see this and this). These are just a few things, but the list is long."

I'm sure that list is massive. They're obviously very generous.

[bassmandan]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='312746' date='Oct 23 2008, 09:24 AM']I don't like bacon[/quote]

[size=1](similar to another post I realise but....)[/size]

WHAT?!.... even vegetarians like bacon!

[ARGH]

[quote name='Russ' post='312689' date='Oct 23 2008, 05:42 AM']Doug Pinnick from King's X has renounced Christianity - apparently his Christian peers were less than understanding when he came out as gay. So I guess that puts paid to that one.

The way I see it, as an ex-Catholic (now with beliefs somewhere in-between agnosticism, humanism, Buddhism and pure physics), is, if God is out there somewhere, then apparently he gave us the capacity for creativity, so, on that basis, all music is a celebration of God.[/quote]
WOAH..didnt know THAT one..thought he might not be straight (my Gaydar flickered a few years back..but I put it down to video styling)

Didnt he change his name to 'Dug' as well?

[Russ]

[quote name='ARGH' post='313148' date='Oct 23 2008, 05:42 PM']WOAH..didnt know THAT one..thought he might not be straight (my Gaydar flickered a few years back..but I put it down to video styling)

Didnt he change his name to 'Dug' as well?[/quote]

He's been out for years now... late '90s I think. And yep, he calls himself "dUg" these days, for some reason.

Tell you what though... did you know he's 58?

[Hit&Run]

[quote name='Hamster' post='312592' date='Oct 22 2008, 10:50 PM']I'd also like to see your referenced source for the "sports cars in his palatial dwelling" comment.[/quote]
I can only comment from what I saw on TV, he may have a rusty old transit now. It was a few years ago that I saw it. Maybe he had well-heeled visitors around for lunch? Whatever the explanation, this vicar appeared to be 'rolling in it'.


[quote name='Hamster' post='312592' date='Oct 22 2008, 10:50 PM']In fact, it was part of a tongue-in-cheek "Matrix" style promotional video for a men's prayer meeting that was given the usual "Won't somebody think of the children" treatment by the media looking for a story.[/quote]
Furry Muff. From the bits I saw it didn't look like a Waco-style recruitment video or anything, in fact I remeber finding it pretty funny.

[Toasted]

I'm really glad not to be involved with them. I know plenty who are glad to be involved.

But, I'll negotiate with God for my immortal soul, thanks.

[Johngh]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='312886' date='Oct 23 2008, 12:18 PM']If religion/God was so great, why do they need to recruit? All they do is prey on the vunerable in society (hookers, the homeless, drummers etc).[/quote]


There is no doubt that "some" church sectors are decidedly "dodgy" The bible has been used over centuries, by "dodgy people" as a mandate to carry out some pretty unsavory stuff.
Most of the time even "the church" can't agree on what's ok and what is not and some seem to ignore the content of what is written in the scriptures which I find very strange.
There is no doubt though that there are some very desperate people out there who need help, and turn to the church to seek that help. The church I attend have very stong links with the authorities in the community who the church will refer the person in need to if its appropriate. I don't think that equates to "preying" though. ( now waits for the enevitable "praying" jokes). Drummers deserve to be preyed upon though !
When I first saw the thread, I though it might turn into a right free for all, but to be fair there have been some interesting comments.

Also, I can't see what's wrong with Pastor's etc being wealthy, I've met some very wealthy "religious" people in my time, and they've all worked hard for their wealth like the rest of us.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Johngh

[tonybassplayer]

Just thought I would add a few comments to this thread that has far exceeded anything else I have commented about.

I sincerely apologise to anyone who may have got the impression that I was trying to promote the ALC or the views that the organisers or congregation believe in.

I simply went along one Sunday evening, enjoyed it and returned the following few weeks.

Tony

[Rumble]

Tony, you don't need to apologise for anything in my view. You went somewhere & saw / heard something you wanted to tell us about so you did. No probs!

The primary reason this thread has found itself diverging from where it was intended to be is that (IMHO) disrespect has, on occasion, been shown to the views and / or beliefs held by certain individuals. I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with my Christian belief and finding my faith in a Creator God that I can't touch, see, smell etc... a little bemusing or bewildering; but what I find causes issues such as those that have occurred in this thread is when individuals attack someone else because of their opinions or beliefs. Agree to disagree and move on. Discuss it by all means, but I see no reason to start throwing round inflammatory and degrading statements because of a difference of opinion.

To refer back to mcgraham's bacon analogy; I personally love bacon. I could justifiably say that I find it difficult to understand how mcgraham couldn't like it, but it would be fair to say that to start calling him a delusional cretin because he doesn't like bacon the same way I do would, I hope you agree, be unnecessary.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Rumble' post='313327' date='Oct 23 2008, 09:27 PM']To refer back to mcgraham's bacon analogy; I personally love bacon. I could justifiably say that I find it difficult to understand how mcgraham couldn't like it, but it would be fair to say that to start calling him a delusional cretin because he doesn't like bacon the same way I do would, I hope you agree, be unnecessary.[/quote]

The trouble us aetheists have is that there are a numner of scientific reasons why people enjoy different foods. Unfortunately (for some) there is no evidence of the existence of a God. And this is always the sticking point.

Imagine me telling you, at 26 years of age, that I still believe in Father Christmas. You'd think I was joking. If I was insistant, you'd think I had mental health issues. If you mocked me for this view, no one would complain. I'd be a running joke. You would certainly take everything I ever said with a large pinch of salt.

If you step away from yourself and look with objective eyes, this whole god business is all just a bit, well, silly. How am I meant to believe in God that refuses to prove his/her existence. All we have to go on is a book that contradicts itself throughout and is of questionnable origin.

I don't care what people believe, but I think they deserve the same gentle ribbing that I would get if I still believed in Santa.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313342' date='Oct 23 2008, 09:40 PM']The trouble us aetheists have is that there are a numner of scientific reasons why people enjoy different foods. Unfortunately (for some) there is no evidence of the existence of a God. And this is always the sticking point.[/quote]

and conversely no evidence of God's non existence.
If you are presupposed to disbelieve there is a God any 'evidence' found can be explained away somehow. Conversely if you believe in God you will find much evidence of his existence.
Logicaly you are unable to disprove the existence of a God, and equally you are unable to prove it.
In questioning God's existence to default to Atheism is illogical, really following scientific logic, through objective eyes one would be an agnostic.


anyway, anyone for some bass playing, i enjoyed that video of John entwistle, although i think his bass would look daft on a little guy like me.

[Rich]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='313457' date='Oct 23 2008, 11:52 PM']and conversely no evidence of God's non existence.[/quote]
Sounds a bit like the old business with Iraq and their supposed WMDs to me... how on earth do you prove beyond all doubt that something [u]doesn't[/u] exist?
Ah well.
Yes.
Music. What with this being the General Bass Discussion area and all...
[quote]anyway, anyone for some bass playing, i enjoyed that video of John entwistle, although i think his bass would look daft on a little guy like me.[/quote]
The JE biog film was shown on the Biography channel again earlier. Thoroughly enjoyed it, although he was getting some seriously crap sounds from the rig in his drawing room!

[Russ]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='313457' date='Oct 23 2008, 10:52 PM']and conversely no evidence of God's non existence.
If you are presupposed to disbelieve there is a God any 'evidence' found can be explained away somehow. Conversely if you believe in God you will find much evidence of his existence.
Logicaly you are unable to disprove the existence of a God, and equally you are unable to prove it.
In questioning God's existence to default to Atheism is illogical, really following scientific logic, through objective eyes one would be an agnostic.


anyway, anyone for some bass playing, i enjoyed that video of John entwistle, although i think his bass would look daft on a little guy like me.[/quote]

In science, the onus is on the scientist to prove a theory, not disprove one. Things are disproved as a result of new evidence. Many of the things and events people used to attribute to divine intervention have since been proved otherwise, so, personally, I think it's only a matter of time.

In the classic theological debate, one must follow the scientific method - the onus is on the believer to prove God's existence, and so begins the vicious cycle... proof denies faith, and without faith, religion is meaningless.

[Adrenochrome]

A very good point from BBC about how we'd view him and his opinions if he did believe in Santa.
I actually think it's been a very interesting thread as I've driven past the ALC many times and never knew anything about it. I'm not religious at all but some of my friends attend an evangelical church in town. We went along to a service when they re-affirmed their marriage vows, and I was very impressed with certain things such as how well my kids were treated and the lack of bible-bashing. There was a strong sense of engaging with the community. I still don't get the whole religion thing though...
...and yes, it's impossible [in logic and science] to [b]prove[/b] that something doesn't exist.

[Rumble]

[quote name='Russ' post='313483' date='Oct 24 2008, 01:37 AM']In the classic theological debate, one must follow the scientific method - the onus is on the believer to prove God's existence, and so begins the vicious cycle... proof denies faith, and without faith, religion is meaningless.[/quote]

...and therein lies one of the main points for confusion; people seem intent on confining God within the realms of science. It is illogical to conceive that a creator will then allow itself to be contain within the realms of it's creation. As such, I'm not sure science will ever categorically prove or disprove God's existence. Enter faith.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Rumble' post='313524' date='Oct 24 2008, 08:27 AM']As such, I'm not sure science will ever categorically prove or disprove God's existence. Enter faith.[/quote]


You mean "Enter blind faith"?

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='313457' date='Oct 23 2008, 11:52 PM']Conversely if you believe in God you will find much evidence of his existence.[/quote]

Will a beleiver please show me (and the rest of the world) this evidence? A baby being born or a summers day doesn't count!


[quote name='LukeFRC' post='313457' date='Oct 23 2008, 11:52 PM']Logicaly you are unable to disprove the existence of a God, and equally you are unable to prove it.
In questioning God's existence to default to Atheism is illogical, really following scientific logic, through objective eyes one would be an agnostic.[/quote]

Rubbish and nonsense. You're better than that! Can you prove I can't read minds? Or fly unaided? Or turn cheese into gold? Go on, prove I can't.

[noisedude]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313567' date='Oct 24 2008, 09:37 AM']Rubbish and nonsense. You're better than that! Can you prove I can't read minds? Or fly unaided? Or turn cheese into gold? Go on, prove I can't.[/quote]
Well..... can you??

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='noisedude' post='313573' date='Oct 24 2008, 09:42 AM']Well..... can you??[/quote]


I can, but because I move in mysterious ways (or some such sh*t) I don't feel the need to prove it. You just need to believe me without a shred of evidence.

[yorks5stringer]

OMG, you're telling me there is no such thing as Father Christmas?

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='313647' date='Oct 24 2008, 11:10 AM']Well, I'm an ex-believer, one who's fallen slightly further than most, but I'll give it a go.

There's a number of classic logical arguments:

There's the ontological argument which goes something like this: God is a perfect being by definition, and since existence is more perfect than non-existence, he therefore exists.

There's the cosmological argument, which argues that God must exist because there must be a first cause.

There's the teleological argument, which is the whole watchmaker thing... life and the universe exhibit complexity and apparent design, therefore there is a designer, God.

Then there's the moral argument, which states that without God we could not have morality.

They're all pretty weak in my opinion. The ontological argument was the one that used to annoy me most. I'm not convinced at all that existence is perfect. The teleological argument and moral argument have become less and less convincing the more we know about biology and the big bang theory goes some way to explain a first cause.

Of course, you can take Stephen Hawking's approach, turn all these arguments around and say that God is the laws of Physics... I don't know that you'd want to sing to them on a Sunday.

Religious belief is a faith position. One that I refuse to criticise.[/quote]


You're right. They're all very weak. Some great minds have been Christians, and this is what they come up with?


One of my main issues is that both God and Jesus have beards. What are they trying to hide? There are only 2 people who can get away with beards: Chuck Norris and bilbo230763(*).






(*) They may be the same person?