Christian Rock

[noisedude]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313576' date='Oct 24 2008, 09:45 AM']I can, but because I move in mysterious ways (or some such sh*t) I don't feel the need to prove it. You just need to believe me without a shred of evidence.[/quote]
I guess the difference is that we [i]know[/i] you're human (just about, and certainly nothing more ) so we have no reason to believe you're not a delusional weirdo.

If we had never seen you BUT we had some experiential evidence that you existed via observation of your superpowers, then we would be looking at a worthwhile analogy.

[noisedude]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='313647' date='Oct 24 2008, 11:10 AM']Well, I'm an ex-believer, one who's fallen slightly further than most, but I'll give it a go.

There's a number of classic logical arguments:

There's the ontological argument which goes something like this: God is a perfect being by definition, and since existence is more perfect than non-existence, he therefore exists.

There's the cosmological argument, which argues that God must exist because there must be a first cause.

There's the teleological argument, which is the whole watchmaker thing... life and the universe exhibit complexity and apparent design, therefore there is a designer, God.

Then there's the moral argument, which states that without God we could not have morality.

They're all pretty weak in my opinion. The ontological argument was the one that used to annoy me most. I'm not convinced at all that existence is perfect. The teleological argument and moral argument have become less and less convincing the more we know about biology and the big bang theory goes some way to explain a first cause.

Of course, you can take Stephen Hawking's approach, turn all these arguments around and say that God is the laws of Physics... I don't know that you'd want to sing to them on a Sunday.

Religious belief is a faith position. One that I refuse to criticise.[/quote]
They're all weak in the sense that you don't really prove anything by mind games. That's why we don't know whether we exist or not, there are some weak arguments to say that Kant was right and that we are all figments of someone else's imagination, and there are some other weak arguments to say that he was wrong because, well, we [i]feel[/i] real.

Philosophy is fun but doesn't really [i]prove[/i] anything, does it?

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='noisedude' post='313665' date='Oct 24 2008, 11:45 AM']I guess the difference is that we [i]know[/i] you're human (just about, and certainly nothing more ) so we have no reason to believe you're not a delusional weirdo.

If we had never seen you BUT we had some experiential evidence that you existed via observation of your superpowers, then we would be looking at a worthwhile analogy.[/quote]


Noisedude, you've never met me. Who's to say I'm human?

And I created the universe (again, prove I didn't) - is that superpower enough for you?

God communicating via a bass forum is as likely as doing it through some hippy in the middle east and a book of questionable origins.




And Kant is one.

[noisedude]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313674' date='Oct 24 2008, 11:57 AM']Noisedude, you've never met me. Who's to say I'm human?

And I created the universe (again, prove I didn't) - is that superpower enough for you?

God communicating via a bass forum is as likely as doing it through some hippy in the middle east and a book of questionable origins.




And Kant is one.[/quote]
It's not a bad effort but, like I say, it's a way off being a good analogy. Keep trying though, because I want to believe!

[BassMunkee]

[quote]Philosophy is fun but doesn't really prove anything, does it?[/quote]
Which is interesting, because neither does faith.

But you can argue with philosophy.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='noisedude' post='313679' date='Oct 24 2008, 12:00 PM']It's not a bad effort but, like I say, it's a way off being a good analogy. Keep trying though, because I want to believe![/quote]


There is no good analogy for peoples faith in God because it's so ridiculous!

This forum always makes me feel like I'M the nutter!

God? A dude in the sky with a beard? Plagues of frogs? Parting of seas?

The fella who's meant to be watching when your having a sly Barclays? (perve).


I thought that even people who go to Church don't believe in it. I always assumed its just a social thing and people hedging their bets 'just in case'. Or people who want to get married in a pretty church.

I suppose on the other hand, he (i mean He) did give RocknRoll to you (gave RocknRoll to you...)

[BassMunkee]

[quote]I suppose on the other hand, he (i mean He) did give RocknRoll to you (gave RocknRoll to you...)[/quote]
He gave rock n roll to everyone.

I'm an Empiricist anyway.
I need concrete proof.
But more than that - I don't care about your god or anyone else's.
We'll all still die no matter how pious you are or how much spare change you tip in the donations tray at the weekend.
All it does is make you feel better because it gives you something to cling on to, your daily or weekly fix of comfort.
That's all it is.

[lowdown]

I like the Philosophy From India…
They have a saying…….

You will not stay a virgin forever…
Eventually life will f**k you!...


Garry

[stevie]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='313457' date='Oct 23 2008, 11:52 PM']and conversely no evidence of God's non existence.[/quote]

You do realize that this argument would apply to Father Christmas as well - or to the virgins waiting in heaven for the suicide bombers. It is a non-argument, to put it mildly.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='stevie' post='313839' date='Oct 24 2008, 02:30 PM']or to the virgins waiting in heaven for the suicide bombers.[/quote]

I've always thought I'd prefer a few old slags waiting up there for me. I'm sure you can't catch a dose in heaven.

[Adrenochrome]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313842' date='Oct 24 2008, 02:34 PM']I've always thought I'd prefer a few old slags waiting up there for me. I'm sure you can't catch a dose in heaven.[/quote]

[joe_bass]

Regarding contradictions in the bible. Is that true? Just wondering.

[stevie]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313842' date='Oct 24 2008, 02:34 PM']I've always thought I'd prefer a few old slags waiting up there for me. I'm sure you can't catch a dose in heaven.[/quote]

Wouldn't you like a change from the usual when you get to heaven?

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='313878' date='Oct 24 2008, 03:20 PM']You see lists here and there on the internet, but they're not hugely impressive, unless you regard the Bible as literal truth.[/quote]

But some of it is meant to be taken as litteral truth. Religous folk have a sliding scale which they move depending on what's currently deemed acceptable.

[Mr Fudge]

Has anybody read the gospel according to Terry Waite? He wrote it whilst chained to a radiator in Lebanon. Pete I believe was the name of the aforementioned radiator.

[LukeFRC]

The existence or non existance of God is a possibility. It has to be as we are discussing it. In science you always start from a "i dont know" position.
If I put 10 arguments for Gods existence to you, even if you disproved each and everyone it doesnt disprove God just my arguments and my finite intelect. There is always the possibility that there is another argument for his existence that you can not disprove.
Equally 10 arguments that God dosen't exist could be defeated. Doesnt prove God doesnt exist. Just that you don't have a watertight arguement for his non existance. Equally the fact is there is the possibility that there is an arguement I have no answer too and proves God doesn't exist.
There fore it can't be proven eitherway- this I why I said I dont see the logic of defulting to atheism.

[joe_bass]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='313878' date='Oct 24 2008, 03:20 PM']You see lists here and there on the internet, but they're not hugely impressive, unless you regard the Bible as literal truth.

Matthew 27: .....................................................................[/quote]

Ah right, so contradiction due to different accounts then. What about like actual teachings & beliefs etc though?

& with churches do they pick & mix what bits they prefer or find more effective or something? When my gf took me to her church they were talking about the crucifixion & used as you've put it, John 19, as in they talked only about Jesus saying "it is finished". Nothing of the other accounts you listed.

[joe_bass]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='313897' date='Oct 24 2008, 03:40 PM']There fore it can't be proven eitherway- this I why I said I dont see the logic of defulting to atheism.[/quote]


Perhaps atheism to a lot of people stems from the fact that you can't prove God does exist, but then you can't prove he doesn't either. However as BBC put it you could then apply that approach with Santa Claus. Which then of course is just farcical. So atheists could make that same conclusion about God & religion?

I'm not an atheist. But based on that sorta logic I could see how someone could reach the conclusion that there is no higher being.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='313897' date='Oct 24 2008, 03:40 PM']The existence or non existance of God is a possibility. It has to be as we are discussing it. In science you always start from a "i dont know" position.
If I put 10 arguments for Gods existence to you, even if you disproved each and everyone it doesnt disprove God just my arguments and my finite intelect. There is always the possibility that there is another argument for his existence that you can not disprove.
Equally 10 arguments that God dosen't exist could be defeated. Doesnt prove God doesnt exist. Just that you don't have a watertight arguement for his non existance. Equally the fact is there is the possibility that there is an arguement I have no answer too and proves God doesn't exist.
There fore it can't be proven eitherway- this I why I said I dont see the logic of defulting to atheism.[/quote]


Because of reasonable doubt. Lets face it, we can't prove anything. Life could be a dream. But we can make some pretty safe assumptions to get to an approximation of the truth. If I drop a ball it will fall. I havn't dropped it yet, so I may be wrong, physics may have changed in the last second. But its a pretty safe assumption.

Prove to me that Santa doesn't exist. I was with my GF when she bought my christmas present last year. I saw her wrap it. But Santa may have crept in on Christmas Eve with an exact copy and switched it round. I think its safe to say that he didn't and that he's an invention to keep kids behaving in the run up to Christmas.


In the same way that Christianity that has kept the uneducated masses behaving themselves for centuries. It amazes me that mugs are still fooled by it.

[stevie]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='313897' date='Oct 24 2008, 03:40 PM']The existence or non existance of God is a possibility. It has to be as we are discussing it. In science you always start from a "i dont know" position.
If I put 10 arguments for Gods existence to you, even if you disproved each and everyone it doesnt disprove God just my arguments and my finite intelect. There is always the possibility that there is another argument for his existence that you can not disprove.
Equally 10 arguments that God dosen't exist could be defeated. Doesnt prove God doesnt exist. Just that you don't have a watertight arguement for his non existance. Equally the fact is there is the possibility that there is an arguement I have no answer too and proves God doesn't exist.
There fore it can't be proven eitherway- this I why I said I dont see the logic of defulting to atheism.[/quote]

I believe in the Sungod. This is the argument I use when people try to tell me it's nonsense. It can't be proven either way, so what's the point of not believing.

[stevie]

[quote name='LukeFRC' post='313897' date='Oct 24 2008, 03:40 PM']The existence or non existance of God is a possibility. It has to be as we are discussing it. In science you always start from a "i dont know" position.
<snip>
There fore it can't be proven eitherway- this I why I said I dont see the logic of defulting to atheism.[/quote]

If I follow your train of thought correctly, agsnosticism is not only the scientific position (= I don't know), it is also the only logical position, given that you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god. Right?

Having said that, I think you will find that most atheists would have no problem accepting that there is a god if there was a viable reason for doing so. They would probably still have an issue with most religions, but that's another matter.

[noisedude]

[quote name='joe_bass' post='313907' date='Oct 24 2008, 03:48 PM']Ah right, so contradiction due to different accounts then. What about like actual teachings & beliefs etc though?

& with churches do they pick & mix what bits they prefer or find more effective or something? When my gf took me to her church they were talking about the crucifixion & used as you've put it, John 19, as in they talked only about Jesus saying "it is finished". Nothing of the other accounts you listed.[/quote]
Basically the Bible is a pretty diverse set of documents written at different times and by different people, to different audiences. The challenge to scholars is to reconstruct meanings with all the contextual information available to them ....... the challenge to normal believers is to work with that same text in a challenging atheist environment [i]without[/i] the tools to really work out what's going on in the books.

Three years of theology in a totally atheist university, being taught mostly by non-believers (people who love the study/subject but haven't concluded to believe in it), didn't leave me with any major problems in the Bible that hadn't already been tackled extensively in research and writing.

I do think, though, that a large number of Biblical scholars who DO have lots to say against the religion probably had those views before they started work and carried the predispositions throughout their writing. It's annoying because their work is just as biased as the believing critics who set out to give their opinions first and the facts second, but atheists seem to take their words as gospel.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='stevie' post='313932' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:21 PM']Having said that, I think you will find that most atheists would have no problem accepting that there is a god if there was a viable reason for doing so.[/quote]

There could be a God in the same way that there could be a tooth fairy, I will accept that.


What I find depressing is that some people are so fearful that they would devote their life to a masive long-shot, just incase there's an afterlife.

Living a lie like a vicar must be worse thant being a closet transvestite. Of course, the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

[noisedude]

[quote name='stevie' post='313932' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:21 PM']If I follow your train of thought correctly, agsnosticism is not only the scientific position (= I don't know), it is also the only logical position, given that you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god. Right?

Having said that, I think you will find that most atheists would have no problem accepting that there is a god if there was a viable reason for doing so. They would probably still have an issue with most religions, but that's another matter.[/quote]
I dunno mate, I think a lot of atheists are more entrenched than that because the definite absence of god brings in some other belief system, even if it's just as basic as narcissism, lots of people still end up building their lives on it in the same way as a religious belief set! The person who believes totally in self-dependence and autonomy, for example, would have big problems accepting there was a god even if there was a viable reason to do so.

[noisedude]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313934' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:27 PM']Living a lie like a vicar must be worse thant being a closet transvestite. Of course, the 2 are not mutually exclusive.[/quote]
What makes you say it's living a lie?