Christian Rock

[TheDarkReaver]

Cake or Death!

[Josh]

[quote name='stevie' post='313932' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:21 PM']If I follow your train of thought correctly, agsnosticism is not only the scientific position (= I don't know), it is also the only logical position, given that you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of god. Right?

Having said that, I think you will find that most atheists would have no problem accepting that there is a god if there was a viable reason for doing so. They would probably still have an issue with most religions, but that's another matter.[/quote]

Agnostics basically sit on the fence, they'd like to think there is something/someone behind all of this but they also think that maybe everything came about differently as opposed the great unquestionable one clicking his/hers/its fingers and voila.

As an Atheist I can happily say if God could ever be proven solidly I would hold my hands up and accept it, simple. If an Atheist is a Fundamentalist as well and is proven wrong then that person would have a lot more trouble accepting it, and unfortunatley most Christians are unknowingly Fundamentalists, they know its true and theres no question, any form of questioning against that is seen as heresy, this espeically applies for Evangelicals and pretty much the South of America.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='noisedude' post='313933' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:25 PM']I do think, though, that a large number of Biblical scholars who DO have lots to say against the religion probably had those views before they started work and carried the predispositions throughout their writing. It's annoying because their work is just as biased as the believing critics who set out to give their opinions first and the facts second, but atheists seem to take their words as gospel.[/quote]


You think its unfair that people who no not believe in a god, when presented with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE of the existence of god, conclude that there probably isn't a god???

Yeah, well unfair.


Any sane person approaching with a totally neutral view on god's existence, after examinning the evidence, would come back and say that its highly unlikely that he/it exists. God strike me down if this isn't true.*

There's certainly not enough evidence to waste a sunday morning over when you could be pulling yourself off over Hollyoaks.










*I'm still waiting, you beardy f***er!

[noisedude]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313944' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:36 PM']You think its unfair that people who no not believe in a god, when presented with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE of the existence of god, conclude that there probably isn't a god???

Yeah, well unfair.[/quote]
That's not what I said at all. Read it again and have think about how one goes about writing solid academic work (hint: it isn't by deciding what your outcome is before you've even identified the question).

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='noisedude' post='313938' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:30 PM']What makes you say it's living a lie?[/quote]


Devoting your life and taking peoples money on behalf of a ridiculous myth that has no place in this century.


They're as bad as those people who sell bracelets and pendants that supposedly reduce mobile radiation. No evidence to back it up (but not disproven), taking advantage of the mentaly vunerable.

[Josh]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313944' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:36 PM']You think its unfair that people who do not believe in a god, when presented with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE of the existence of god, conclude that there probably isn't a god???

Yeah, well unfair.


Any sane person approaching with a totally neutral view on god's existence, after examinning the evidence, would come back and say that its highly unlikely that he/it exists. God strike me down if this isn't true.*

There's certainly not enough evidence to waste a sunday morning over when you could be pulling yourself off over Hollyoaks.


*I'm still waiting, you beardy f***er![/quote]

+1.

I find it hard to get along with people who although being extremely smart are delluded with such silly false promises, but then again the same can be said for Religious people looking down at people who have no belief and wish to lead an "Empty" existence, but the truth as is as soon as you can accept that there is no glorified shag pad after you die you learn to appreciate life mroe than any Chrisitian who kind of live a lazy lifestyle with the mindset that with a little prayer here and there that they will be in line to comb God's beard.

[noisedude]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313949' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:41 PM']Devoting your life and taking peoples money on behalf of a ridiculous myth that has no place in this century.


They're as bad as those people who sell bracelets and pendants that supposedly reduce mobile radiation. No evidence to back it up (but not disproven), taking advantage of the mentaly vunerable.[/quote]
What evidence do you have that vicars don't believe in God?

It's only a lie if they are actually some other religion or atheists and I doubt you'll find many people willing to work for £14k pa on those terms.

[Josh]

[quote name='noisedude' post='313953' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:44 PM']What evidence do you have that vicars don't believe in God?[/quote]

If a Vicar is preaching every Sunday and does not have a belief then he/she is a complete hypocrite.

Edited October 24, 2008 by Josh

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='noisedude' post='313947' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:40 PM']That's not what I said at all. Read it again and have think about how one goes about writing solid academic work (hint: it isn't by deciding what your outcome is before you've even identified the question).[/quote]


Thats why I stated that a truly agnostic "neutral" would come back with the view that the existence of God is pretty unlikely.


Solid academic work about God is pretty difficult when your only evidence is a pretty sunrise or the rantings of a kiddy-fiddler in a dress.



Having said that, I'm a hypocrite. Although I don't believe in God, I think its quite feasible that all the evidence re: the age of the universe, age of the earth, evolution is nonsense and that its quite likely that we are living on a 6000 year old planet and are the descendats of Adam and Eve (one of whom coming from the others rib). I'm pretty sure of this because my uneducated parents and a old fella with a dog collar force fed me such sh*t when I wasn't old enough to make up my own mind.

[noisedude]

[quote name='Josh' post='313959' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:50 PM']If a Vicar is preaching every Sunday and does not have a belief then he/she is a complete hypocrite.[/quote]
Of course. But tBBC said they were all living a lie ....... but I don't think he has anything to show that they are any less believers than all of the churchgoers. I know plenty of clergy and I very much doubt they are atheists en masse, so they may be misguided but they aren't liars.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='noisedude' post='313953' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:44 PM']What evidence do you have that vicars don't believe in God?[/quote]

I have the habit of assuming that most people have a degree of intelligence.

[noisedude]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313961' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:51 PM']Thats why I stated that a truly agnostic "neutral" would come back with the view that the existence of God is pretty unlikely.


Solid academic work about God is pretty difficult when your only evidence is a pretty sunrise or the rantings of a kiddy-fiddler in a dress.



Having said that, I'm a hypocrite. Although I don't believe in God, I think its quite feasible that all the evidence re: the age of the universe, age of the earth, evolution is nonsense and that its quite likely that we are living on a 6000 year old planet and are the descendats of Adam and Eve (one of whom coming from the others rib). I'm pretty sure of this because my uneducated parents and a old fella with a dog collar force fed me such sh*t when I wasn't old enough to make up my own mind.[/quote]
We weren't talking about philosophy about God, we were talking about Biblical criticism. Whether you believe in God or not is totally irrelevant to the study of it as a collection of writings, trying to find meanings, learning about the authors, corroborating the accepted translations etc etc.

Oh, and I don't know a single Christian who believes the planet is 6000 years old either.

[noisedude]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313967' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:53 PM']I have the habit of assuming that most people have a degree of intelligence.[/quote]
Why would you assume that someone who works for peanuts to spend their life teaching people about God is clever?

Come on, Chief, you really can do better than this. I believe you have some good anti-god arguments in you, but these are just sloppy. Vicars are all liars who have a rubbish lifestyle in order to make people believe in something they think is nonsense? How on earth do they stand to benefit?

[Josh]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313961' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:51 PM']Solid academic work about God is pretty difficult when your only evidence is a pretty sunrise or the rantings of a kiddy-fiddler in a dress.[/quote]

Thats going in the quotes thread.

[joe_bass]

[quote name='Josh' post='313952' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:43 PM']the same can be said for Religious people looking down at people who have no belief and wish to lead an "Empty" existence, but the truth as is as soon as you can accept that there is no glorified shag pad after you die you learn to appreciate life mroe than any Chrisitian who kind of live a lazy lifestyle with the mindset that with a little prayer here and there that they will be in line to comb God's beard.[/quote]


Not all Christians look down on people who aren't. Might be the minority, wouldn't know because I probably don't know enough.

As for laziness though, I've never met a Christian who seems to have the attitude of squandering this life because there is a better, eternal life to come.


Right I'm off to London for the weekend!! Prob be a few more pages to this when I get back lol. Regards

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='noisedude' post='313968' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:55 PM']We weren't talking about philosophy about God, we were talking about Biblical criticism. Whether you believe in God or not is totally irrelevant to the study of it as a collection of writings, trying to find meanings, learning about the authors, corroborating the accepted translations etc etc.[/quote]

A book review? Great. Worthwhile stuff. As a history project. Take the book for what it is - a curious collection of writings. Basing a faith on it is something else.


[quote name='noisedude' post='313968' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:55 PM']Oh, and I don't know a single Christian who believes the planet is 6000 years old either.[/quote]


But you know some who think we're the spawn of Adam and Eve? And that all the animals were led 2x2 into a boat?

Of course, I'm taking it to litteraly!

Why is it that anything in the bible that can actually be proven (and usually proven wrong) is deemed to me non-litteral, while anything that is nice and vague and open to interpretation is seen as "gospel"?

[Hamster]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313986' date='Oct 24 2008, 05:03 PM']A book review? Great. Worthwhile stuff. As a history project. Take the book for what it is - a curious collection of writings. Basing a faith on it is something else.[/quote]

So, perhaps a question here (not just to you BBC) as to whether the Bible is a collection of loose ramblings or an authoritative historical work?

Do you believe that other historical figures like Julius Caesar and Nero were born, did the things they did during their life and then died in the way they did?

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Hamster' post='314006' date='Oct 24 2008, 05:23 PM']So, perhaps a question here (not just to you BBC) as to whether the Bible is a collection of loose ramblings or an authoritative historical work?

Do you believe that other historical figures like Julius Caesar and Nero were born, did the things they did during their life and then died in the way they did?[/quote]


I'm not sure what you're asking.

I do indeed believe that people in history did exist.

I believe that the bible references people that did exist.

Jesus could have existed. In fact, given the number of people who have claimed to be the son of God, I'm sure 1 has been called Jesus.

Therefore, the book, like any old book is worth studying from a historical perspective.


Its the magic and wizard sh*t that I could do without.

[Kiwi]

I smell a circular argument.

I used to pick fights with religious zealots for fun when I was at university, just for the sport of strangling them with their own hypocrisy. Hari Krishnas, JW's and Born Agains were all fair game. Now I can't be bothered.

Ironically, the world HASN'T changed one way or another. Live and let live I say.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='314014' date='Oct 24 2008, 05:30 PM']I smell a circular argument.

I used to pick fights with religious zealots for fun when I was at university, just for the sport of strangling them with their own hypocrisy. Now I can't be bothered.

Ironically, the world HASN'T changed one way or another.[/quote]


For once I agree with you CK.

I'm old enough to know better.

[Josh]

If Jesus did exist, he was most certainly not white and did not have pearly white teeth and a tidy goatee and nice clean blonde hair.

[Kiwi]

PS: I think trying to use logic to rationalise or deconstruct what are essentially irrational belief systems is a pointless exercise irrespective of whether you're religious or not.

BTW: Can we get this thread back on track please?

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Josh' post='314018' date='Oct 24 2008, 05:31 PM']If Jesus did exist, he was most certainly not white and did not have pearly white teeth and a tidy goatee and nice clean blonde hair.[/quote]

He definitely had a mullet.

[Josh]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='314021' date='Oct 24 2008, 05:34 PM']He definitely had a mullet.[/quote]

Pat Sharpe perhaps?

Edited October 24, 2008 by Josh

[Johngh]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='313949' date='Oct 24 2008, 04:41 PM']Devoting your life and taking peoples money on behalf of a ridiculous myth that has no place in this century.


They're as bad as those people who sell bracelets and pendants that supposedly reduce mobile radiation. No evidence to back it up (but not disproven), taking advantage of the mentaly vunerable.[/quote]


Your argument holds no foundation. Churches, like any other establishments have running costs to be met, electric etc. There isn't exactly a direct line to heaven where the electric is free ! So how do you expect the bills get paid.
Personally speaking, what people decide to devote their life to is pretty much up to them, whatever floats their boat, its their life, let em get on with it.

There are endless trollops who devote their entire life trying to find out why the dinosoares died out etc, please, get a proper job !