Christian Rock

[Josh]

[quote name='Johngh' post='314024' date='Oct 24 2008, 05:36 PM']Your argument holds no foundation. Churches, like any other establishments have running costs to be met, electric etc. There isn't exactly a direct line to heaven where the electric is free ! So how do you expect the bills get paid.
Personally speaking, what people decide to devote their life to is pretty much up to them, whatever floats their boat, its their life, let em get on with it.

There are endless trollops who devote their entire life trying to find out why the dinosoares died out etc, please, get a proper job ![/quote]

Nice contradiction.

Why should they? Let them do what they want, if in the process they prove many religious "Facts" wrong then oh well, or is that what so many people are scared of?

Edited October 24, 2008 by Josh

[Kiwi]

*ahem*

[Josh]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='314032' date='Oct 24 2008, 05:45 PM']*ahem*[/quote]

I are Bad boy?

[Johngh]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='314032' date='Oct 24 2008, 05:45 PM']*ahem*[/quote]

Soz CK my post was being typed as you slapped our hands. As Ringo just said " Pease and Love, Pease and Love" I'm beginning to sound like a Hippy now !

[Kiwi]

[mcgraham]

On the topic of musicians in church worship teams being quite adept at being in a band situation, there is a key difference between the average band and the average worship team that contributes towards this.

Average bands have a more or less set song list with a set order to each (e.g. chorus, verse, bridge played x number of times etc) and set dynamics in each song. In contrast, worship teams are there to support/serve the atmosphere at any given time. This means that there generally isn't a set-in-stone order to each and every song, and musicians need to be able to simply pay attention to what the band leader is doing. In time, teams and individual members begin to develop a common sense of where the music is 'going' (with regard to dynamics and sections) based on the song being played and the atmosphere at a given time. This helps tie them in more tightly than just weekly rehearsals. I'm saying this from experience and it has served me immensely well in numerous other ventures.

On top of that, as someone else has pointed out, you frequently get given chord charts 30 mins before a worship set (or in some cases whilst the song is being started!). In a gospel choir I played in they literally only told me the key, and even then only when I asked, as they were starting the song. I'd then have the duration of the song to work out the chord progressions and something to fit in with what the music leader (typically piano) was laying down.

In short, worship teams have to be a lot more flexible both in and out of their 'gig' time.

Mark

[Kiwi]

FWIW:


and its not my intent to pour scorn on Mr Sheenan either. He's reasonably open about his beliefs and respectful of others beliefs which is laudable.

However with some of the gospel vids on you tube how can anyone not be moved such as by the stunning example below?



No question in my mind about the power of belief. (He types in the hope it brings the topic back round to the original post...)

[walplayer]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='314094' date='Oct 24 2008, 07:42 PM']On the topic of musicians in church worship teams being quite adept at being in a band situation, there is a key difference between the average band and the average worship team that contributes towards this.[/quote]

What does that mean? What's a worship team?

[lowdown]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='314223' date='Oct 24 2008, 10:49 PM'](He types in the hope it brings the topic back round to the original post...)[/quote]

I am with you on that...

As a side note should this topic not be under another posting now.
Like...
Recycling unwanted items...

Garry

[Hutton]

I am a minister in the Church of Scotland and would not ever consider being as offensive to any other occupation as some members have been here to my profession. Reasoned debate is one thing offence is another.

[Huge Hands]

I don't normally get involved in the contenscious threads, but here' my take (apologies, I couldn't be a**ed to read all 12 pages):

As a young learning drummer of 12, I was desperate to join a band. My brother was playing keyboards in our church band (C of E) which didn't have a drummer, and they let me join.

From a "learning your chops" kind of thing, it was great. Rehearsing every week, playing every other Sunday service (the church still had a traditional organist and choir as well who did the other ones) it was a good experience. We only played the Graham Kendrick/Mission Praise kind of stuff - i.e. "Shine Jesus Shine" was about as exciting as it got.

Apart from having to put up with being shouted at regularly by my brother (who by then was the bandleader), I had a great time.

My problem was I couldn't get on with the religion bit. I see faith and religion as two different things. What people do to find God and be spiritual is up to them, and in the case of my mother, who has attended church regularly all her life, I think it is great for her because she gets a sense of meaning and community spirit from it.

However, in my opinion, and note this is only my opinion, I struggled with the automaton way that people recite the same order of service week in week out. I could probably recite most of "Rite A" now but the problem is I wouldn't be thinking about any of it. I would just be saying it. That is not worship to me.

My other main issue at the time was the hypocrisy of most churchgoers - all saying this stuff week in week out, but acting completely differently. Lots of catty women fighting over who was the head of tea and biscuits in the church hall etc etc etc. I also worked with the Spring Harvest festivals for a few years as an outsider. I always considered these events to be the "extremists" of C of E - i.e. claiming to be the most into their faith and very "in your face" about it. I found the worst levels of hypocrisy there. I remember seeing a girl I had known at university there. When she found out I was only working there and not attending for the religious experience, she and her mates all turned their noses up and walked off. Great Christian attitude - thanks!

I can remember, when drumming with the local church, our band being invited to play at another church where they were going to try and recreate the "Toronto effect" - i.e. where everyone closes their eyes, the Spirit of God is meant to fill the room and people start talking in foreign tongues etc. Now this may be legitimate elsewhere, but I was being naughty and had one eye open. That may have stopped it working, but I swear I saw a woman open her eyes, look around to make sure there was nothing in her way behind her to get hurt on, and then fall to the floor babbling away. I lost a lot of respect for these sorts of things that day.

Again, this is all my own humble opinion. I will say this; the closest I have been to having a religious experience is playing music in a church. It may be God, it may be the acoustics, I don't know, but when it's right, you get the shivers down your spine etc. I got married last year and asked my brother to play the organ. The night before at the rehearsal, when he kicked it in full tilt with all the stops out, it reduced me to tears in seconds. I know some of it was probably nerves, some of it emotion, some of it was pride at my brother (the b*****d!), but I don't think I'd have felt that in a registry office.

I guess I also have to thank that band for making me want to play bass. I was listening to a load of soul/funk/acid jazz at the time and was dying to play along with a good bass player. The one in the church band was a guitarist who was doing it because no one else would, and therefore he was ok, but no funkmeister. This made me want to explore the difference between the two and take up bass. I rarely play drums now, and my kit is collecting mould up in the loft. Unfortunately our current drummer is a left hooker, so I don't get to have much of a shot on his kit either!

Anyhoo, sorry to ramble. I kind of agree with Hutton's post. I've been pointing out a few things that turned me away from the church. It doesn't make me hate (what I perceive as) God, nor would it make me want to tell others not to try it. It's just not for me.

FWIW, I still think tBBC is hilarious.

[Kiwi]

back on the OP please? Belief and bass.

[Huge Hands]

Sorry Kiwi, thought I had done a mix of both. Was trying to be as "this is only my opinion and experience" and non confrontational as possible.

Slap on the wrist accepted.

[hatori]

[quote name='Huge Hands' post='314361' date='Oct 25 2008, 09:33 AM']I don't normally get involved in the contenscious threads, but here' my take (apologies, I couldn't be a**ed to read all 12 pages):

As a young learning drummer of 12, I was desperate to join a band. My brother was playing keyboards in our church band (C of E) which didn't have a drummer, and they let me join.

From a "learning your chops" kind of thing, it was great. Rehearsing every week, playing every other Sunday service (the church still had a traditional organist and choir as well who did the other ones) it was a good experience. We only played the Graham Kendrick/Mission Praise kind of stuff - i.e. "Shine Jesus Shine" was about as exciting as it got.

Apart from having to put up with being shouted at regularly by my brother (who by then was the bandleader), I had a great time.

My problem was I couldn't get on with the religion bit. I see faith and religion as two different things. What people do to find God and be spiritual is up to them, and in the case of my mother, who has attended church regularly all her life, I think it is great for her because she gets a sense of meaning and community spirit from it.

However, in my opinion, and note this is only my opinion, I struggled with the automaton way that people recite the same order of service week in week out. I could probably recite most of "Rite A" now but the problem is I wouldn't be thinking about any of it. I would just be saying it. That is not worship to me.

My other main issue at the time was the hypocrisy of most churchgoers - all saying this stuff week in week out, but acting completely differently. Lots of catty women fighting over who was the head of tea and biscuits in the church hall etc etc etc. I also worked with the Spring Harvest festivals for a few years as an outsider. I always considered these events to be the "extremists" of C of E - i.e. claiming to be the most into their faith and very "in your face" about it. I found the worst levels of hypocrisy there. I remember seeing a girl I had known at university there. When she found out I was only working there and not attending for the religious experience, she and her mates all turned their noses up and walked off. Great Christian attitude - thanks!

I can remember, when drumming with the local church, our band being invited to play at another church where they were going to try and recreate the "Toronto effect" - i.e. where everyone closes their eyes, the Spirit of God is meant to fill the room and people start talking in foreign tongues etc. Now this may be legitimate elsewhere, but I was being naughty and had one eye open. That may have stopped it working, but I swear I saw a woman open her eyes, look around to make sure there was nothing in her way behind her to get hurt on, and then fall to the floor babbling away. I lost a lot of respect for these sorts of things that day.

Again, this is all my own humble opinion. I will say this; the closest I have been to having a religious experience is playing music in a church. It may be God, it may be the acoustics, I don't know, but when it's right, you get the shivers down your spine etc. I got married last year and asked my brother to play the organ. The night before at the rehearsal, when he kicked it in full tilt with all the stops out, it reduced me to tears in seconds. I know some of it was probably nerves, some of it emotion, some of it was pride at my brother (the b*****d!), but I don't think I'd have felt that in a registry office.

I guess I also have to thank that band for making me want to play bass. I was listening to a load of soul/funk/acid jazz at the time and was dying to play along with a good bass player. The one in the church band was a guitarist who was doing it because no one else would, and therefore he was ok, but no funkmeister. This made me want to explore the difference between the two and take up bass. I rarely play drums now, and my kit is collecting mould up in the loft. Unfortunately our current drummer is a left hooker, so I don't get to have much of a shot on his kit either!

Anyhoo, sorry to ramble. I kind of agree with Hutton's post. I've been pointing out a few things that turned me away from the church. It doesn't make me hate (what I perceive as) God, nor would it make me want to tell others not to try it. It's just not for me.

FWIW, I still think tBBC is hilarious.[/quote]
I can echo most of your experiences mate, it does make you wonder. I wont go into the whys and wherefors of how I became a Christian but one important factor for me as a bass player is that over all the 44 years of playing I have never had such powerful moments (hard to put into words) where it becomes so intense you reach that place where everything is....cant find words to describe. Its made me look for music that touches that place. Ive found music outside of the Church that has taken me to a similar level but none so powerfully. I can understand all of the comments here (love the bbc take on things). All I can say is looking at what I had in my life before and at what I have now Im truly thankful. Im not a Bible thumper, I just want to try and live my life the best I can. My faith in God is unshaken. Its just our human nature that causes the screw ups.

[stevie]

[quote name='BeLow' post='314133' date='Oct 24 2008, 08:40 PM']I should point out the adverts placed by the humanist society states there [u]probably[/u] isn't a god. That sounds like a belief to me, so perhaps it is about time we started harassing the humanist society, it's bad enough that believers in god club together, but how sad can to be in a club because you don't believe in something.

They really are sad gits, it's a bit like being in an anti train spotter club because you don't like train spotters.[/quote]

This is what the humanists believe, taken from their UK web site:

"- Humanism is an approach to life based on humanity and reason - humanists recognise that moral values are properly founded on human nature and experience alone. Our decisions are based on the available evidence and our assessment of the outcomes of our actions, not on any dogma or sacred text.

- Humanism encompasses atheism and agnosticism ‑ but is an active and ethical philosophy far greater than these negative responses to religion.

- Humanists believe in individual rights and freedoms ‑ but believe that individual responsibility, social cooperation and mutual respect are just as important.

- Humanists believe that people can and will continue to find solutions to the world's problems ‑ so that quality of life can be improved for everyone.

- Humanists are positive ‑ gaining inspiration from our lives, art and culture, and a rich natural world.

- Humanists believe that we have only one life ‑ it is our responsibility to make it a good life, and to live it to the full."

What particular part of that philosphy makes them sad gits, in your opinion?

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Huge Hands' post='314365' date='Oct 25 2008, 09:47 AM']Sorry Kiwi, thought I had done a mix of both. Was trying to be as "this is only my opinion and experience" and non confrontational as possible.

Slap on the wrist accepted.[/quote]
no slap on the wrist needed, I'm glad the discussion is happening. Just would prefer the potential for confrontation is reduced.

FWIW, just so people don't read into my motives, I'm not Christian by any means and I've recently lost a close friend of 20 years who became very religious because I hold fairly strong opinions myself but as hatori says, its mostly about human nature. I've met inspirational christians and I've met complete right wing baptist zealots.

Regardless of the belief system it comes down to interpretation at the end of the day. I see nothing wrong with wanting to be nice to people even if I don't share their beliefs and for me, regardless of the beliefs held, that's where its at. Same for bass playing. Its all about the person and what inspires them to push themselves.

[noisedude]

[quote name='Huge Hands' post='314365' date='Oct 25 2008, 09:47 AM']Sorry Kiwi, thought I had done a mix of both. Was trying to be as "this is only my opinion and experience" and non confrontational as possible.

Slap on the wrist accepted.[/quote]
I thought it was a good post.

Certainly the level of musicianship depends on the style of music you're involved in. A friend of mine is in charge of music in a large church near here, and has recently been signed to a record label. Now he undoubtedly has an ear for a tune and an excellent singing voice, all his songs are five-chord tricks in G or E (occasionally different via the obligatory Kyser capo) and sound like Coldplay/Athlete-lite acoustic rock. I can't imagine it's all that rewarding to play really.

I can understand how gospel style music could be different.

[Hamster]

Here's a good effort - bless that bass player!

[stevie]

[quote name='Hutton' post='314346' date='Oct 25 2008, 08:47 AM']I am a minister in the Church of Scotland and would not ever consider being as offensive to any other occupation as some members have been here to my profession. Reasoned debate is one thing offence is another.[/quote]

Do you feel that all professions should be immune from lampooning, satire, derision, parody, cutting humour - or just your own?

Exactly what did you find offensive?

Edited October 25, 2008 by stevie

[lowdown]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='314444' date='Oct 25 2008, 11:47 AM']As an aside, the irony of your member number made me chuckle a little [/quote]


Could he be a closet Blues Musician..?

"Cross Road Blues" is one of Delta Blues singer Robert Johnson's most famous songs. The lyrics plainly have the narrator attempting to hitch a ride from an intersection as darkness falls. But in close association with the mythic legend of Johnson's short life and death, it has come to represent the tale of a blues man going to a metaphorical crossroads to meet the devil to sell his soul in exchange for becoming a famous blues player.

Garry

[Kiwi]

There's some pretty god playing here from someone we all know.

EDIT: Oops was that a freudian or a typo?

[Josh]

[quote name='Hutton' post='314346' date='Oct 25 2008, 08:47 AM']I am a minister in the Church of Scotland and would not ever consider being as offensive to any other occupation as some members have been here to my profession. Reasoned debate is one thing offence is another.[/quote]

I don't think anyone has gone as far as to say anything like "Christians are twats" etc...

All thats happened is that we've been questioning beliefs, for and against, but it seems that you are envoking that "Privilege" in which your not allowed to question Religion, or questioning Religion is seen as an attack or an offence to God. I will always question Religion and it's followers, regardless of this self amended privilege, why should you escape question, criticism or ridicule?

[Hamster]

[quote name='Josh' post='314598' date='Oct 25 2008, 05:16 PM']........why should you escape question, criticism or ridicule?[/quote]

Questioning - fine. Criticism - if needed or asked for. But ridicule? I think it's called respect for one another - or am I just being a twat?

[Josh]

[quote name='Hamster' post='314605' date='Oct 25 2008, 05:36 PM']Questioning - fine. Criticism - if needed or asked for. But ridicule? I think it's called respect for one another - or am I just being a twat? [/quote]

Ridicule without reason isn't called for, but if there is reason to then it is justified.

[Hamster]

[quote name='Josh' post='314607' date='Oct 25 2008, 05:39 PM']Ridicule without reason isn't called for, but if there is reason to then it is justified.[/quote]

Ridicule is used mainly to make make yourself feel better or superior, that's why it's the argument of the mob and the first and last argument of fools.