Muppet Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 We did a gig the other night. Very well attended and there were four acts on the bill with us headlining/last on. It's originals music. After we finish the promoter comes on the mic, thanks everyone for attending and announces he and the sound engineer have been recording the whole thing and will be selling it through his website shortly. We didn't agree to this, didn't sign anything and the songs he recorded are those that we are just about to release on an album. We're off to the MU for advice but anyone got a view on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) Unless you have signed anything the short answer is no. The easiest way to stop this will be to hit his website with a DMCA take down notice. I'd also find out who his hosting provider is and hit them with one as well. They will definitely act whereas the promoter might think they can get away with ignoring you. Edit: And also get in touch with whoever they are using to process the payments (probably PayPal) and let them know that they are selling copyrighted material that they don't own. Edited February 25, 2017 by BigRedX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JapanAxe Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 This does nothing to improve my view of promoters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) If you own your songs, I would say no. Are your originals copy written? Are these all bands that are signed with labels with huge followings? How much money do you think this will generate for this guy? Blue Edited February 25, 2017 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muppet Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share Posted February 25, 2017 Yes originals. I can't imagine he'll make a huge amount, but it's not really about the money, more the fact he's assumed he can do it without gaining explicit consent! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolverinebass Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) My response to crap like this is simple. This. http://youtu.be/aNEiBl3aQcY Edited February 25, 2017 by Wolverinebass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Solicitor, with a 'cease & desist' notice - won't cost much, but gives you solid ammunition if you need to get they guy sanctioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambient Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I would just drop them a polite email. You don't really want to fall out with them. A similar thing happened to me a couple of years ago where a track of mine was used on something that ended up being sold as download without my permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downdown Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Sounds like the person to speak with is the promoter. No need to get arsey (at this stage), just ask who gave permission to sell your songs because you were planning to release your own album soon. If it was in the gig contract then he'll be able to point out where, if not then you can start discussions about YOUR terms for allowing him to sell YOUR songs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderpaws Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1488023107' post='3245089'] If you own your songs, I would say no. Are your originals copy written? Are these all bands that are signed with labels with huge followings? How much money do you think this will generate for this guy? Blue [/quote] What's the easiest way to copyright your own material? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 With written stuff it used to be that you sent it to yourself by registered post and DIDN'T OPEN IT unless it was needed by a court/solicitor. I'm musing that you could probably send a cd registered in the same way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EliasMooseblaster Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I'd be interested to see what the MU say about this one, as I had a different-but-comparable dust-up over recorded material a couple of years ago. The key thing I quickly learnt from that exchange was a distinction between a song and a recording. Legally, it turns out they're slightly different entities. The songs, obviously, are yours. He cannot claim ownership of those - though by the sound of it, he's not trying to. However, because he made the [i]recording[/i] himself, he might be able to claim to own that. On the other hand, he almost certainly shouldn't be able to sell that recording, because it contains songs to which he does not have any rights. He would only be allowed to sell it if he'd reached an agreement with the people who owned the songs (i.e., your band) in which conditions of use, royalties, etc had been hashed out to everyone's satisfaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downdown Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='taunton-hobbit' timestamp='1488034844' post='3245233'] With written stuff it used to be that you sent it to yourself by registered post and DIDN'T OPEN IT unless it was needed by a court/solicitor. I'm musing that you could probably send a cd registered in the same way? [/quote] Yes, that is a widely touted idea, but it's not so much that you APPLY for copyright because it automatically belongs to the creator of the work. The trick is to be able to PROVE you're the creator of the work, hence sending yourself a sealed letter. There will be other methods of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taunton-hobbit Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Thanks Downdown - I should have made that clear(er) - my bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downdown Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1488034986' post='3245234'] I'd be interested to see what the MU say about this one, as I had a different-but-comparable dust-up over recorded material a couple of years ago. The key thing I quickly learnt from that exchange was a distinction between a song and a recording. Legally, it turns out they're slightly different entities. The songs, obviously, are yours. He cannot claim ownership of those - though by the sound of it, he's not trying to. However, because he made the [i]recording[/i] himself, he might be able to claim to own that. On the other hand, he almost certainly shouldn't be able to sell that recording, because it contains songs to which he does not have any rights. He would only be allowed to sell it if he'd reached an agreement with the people who owned the songs (i.e., your band) in which conditions of use, royalties, etc had been hashed out to everyone's satisfaction. [/quote] Interesting point. What's the situation with covers? I've heard that you don't need permission to cover a song but you do need to pay royalties to the copyright owner. is that actually the case? If so, perhaps the promoter CAN sell his recording of the concert (and it certainly is his recording) but he would be legally obliged to pay royalties? I'm not sure, just guessing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1488019563' post='3245041'] This does nothing to improve my view of promoters! [/quote] Promoters polititians... What's the difference? Heeheehee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpondonBassed Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 I think I'd ask how much of a cut I was going to get in the first approach and base my follow up on the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='Downdown' timestamp='1488035362' post='3245245'] Interesting point. What's the situation with covers? I've heard that you don't need permission to cover a song but you do need to pay royalties to the copyright owner. is that actually the case? If so, perhaps the promoter CAN sell his recording of the concert (and it certainly is his recording) but he would be legally obliged to pay royalties? I'm not sure, just guessing. [/quote] Slightly different context... but church I play at pays a licence to have us play the music - then they are supposed to have an annual count of how many times each song is played that gets submitted to the licence organiser people who I suppose divide it between whosever's songs are getting played. What we can't/shouldn't do is record this off the desk as we don't have a licence for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBass Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='Downdown' timestamp='1488035362' post='3245245'] Interesting point. What's the situation with covers? I've heard that you don't need permission to cover a song but you do need to pay royalties to the copyright owner. is that actually the case? If so, perhaps the promoter CAN sell his recording of the concert (and it certainly is his recording) but he would be legally obliged to pay royalties? I'm not sure, just guessing. [/quote] Legally, you are supposed to hold a PRS licence, or play venues that do. When you play said venue, you are supposed to fill out a PRS form and provide your set list to them with the form. However enforcement of such rule is very lax currently, and hard to do. Your explanation of the recording and the song is spot on. Songs are considered Intellectual Property, so once it's created, the copyright is held with the creator. If you can prove you created it, normally by either registering an account with PRS/PPL with a recording, and/or you score said song with melody line, and post it, this is usually enough to show your IP. No one can sell or use your IP without permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='Downdown' timestamp='1488035362' post='3245245'] Interesting point. What's the situation with covers? I've heard that you don't need permission to cover a song but you do need to pay royalties to the copyright owner. is that actually the case? If so, perhaps the promoter CAN sell his recording of the concert (and it certainly is his recording) but he would be legally obliged to pay royalties? I'm not sure, just guessing. [/quote] For a live performance of a cover the royalties are covered by the venue's PRS licence. If the band submits a set list then the royalties can be accurately calculated, otherwise it's estimated based on samples that have been recorded. For pub gigs it's not a massive amount - £6 divided up between ALL the songs played at a gig by all the artists performing. For a recording you have to get permission from the MCPS, which normally involves paying a royalty fee up front based on the numbers of records and/or CDs being produced. For downloads and streaming it gets MUCH more complicated, and I very much doubt that the promoter will have even bothered to sort this out, so unless somewhere along the lines the OP's band have unwittingly given permission for their songs the be used in this way as part of the gig contract, the promoter doesn't have a leg to stand on regarding this, and could end up in serious trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Downdown Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) So the PRS licence is effectively also permission to play covers? But what happens if you want to release a recording of the cover, ie it's not a performance? In other my previous point about not needing permission to cover a song is incorrect, and if so (I genuinely don't know), what's the mechanism for getting permission? Is there some sort of PRS equivalent for recorded covers? EDIT: oops posted at the same time that BRX was providing the answers. many thanks! Edited February 25, 2017 by Downdown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='Downdown' timestamp='1488036587' post='3245271'] So the PRS licence is effectively also permission to play covers? But what happens if you want to release a recording of the cover, ie it's not a performance? In other my previous point about not needing permission to cover a song is incorrect, and if so (I genuinely don't know), what's the mechanism for getting permission? Is there some sort of PRS equivalent for recorded covers? [/quote] See my post above regarding the MCPS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubrad Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Admittedly this goes back 20 years or so, but a band I was in were told that, at MCPS licence stage, permission to duplicate a recording can be refused by the copyright owner. No MCPS licence equates to illegal product. Probably worth digging deeper to confirm the current state of affairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='hubrad' timestamp='1488037153' post='3245277'] Admittedly this goes back 20 years or so, but a band I was in were told that, at MCPS licence stage, permission to duplicate a recording can be refused by the copyright owner. No MCPS licence equates to illegal product. Probably worth digging deeper to confirm the current state of affairs. [/quote] That's still correct, and if you want to download or stream a recording of a cover it gets even more complicated and harder to get permission from the copyright holders. A few years ago one of the companies I worked for wanted to create a Christmas micro-site which among other things featured recordings of them singing various festive songs. Trying to sort out permissions and MCPS royalty payments for those that were allowed proved to be a complete nightmare especially given that we needed the site to be up an running for the beginning of December. In the end it was far easier to stick to Christmas Carols and other out-of copyright tunes than negotiate the various permissions and approvals required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 [quote name='Thunderpaws' timestamp='1488034086' post='3245228'] What's the easiest way to copyright your own material? [/quote] Write it. Then it's your copyright. You automatically have copyright of your own original works. Proving that you wrote it on or before a certain date is the issue over proving copyright, but in this case, that's not going to be an issue as the promoter presumably isn't going to claim that he wrote the songs. But I think this would be performance rights rather than a copyright issue, although IANAL so I could be talking rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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