How to achieve an action like this?

[Greg.Bassman]

Just watching this clip from Level 42’s ‘Guaranteed’ live... https://www.youtube....h?v=93VqyeUz8Z8

I’m amazed by how slinky and LOW his action appears here; it’s almost like there is NO distance between the strings and fingerboard atall! lol. What factors come into play when trying to achieve a set-up like this?

My thoughts so far:
I understand that Mark favours medium scale basses; typically with short scale basses, the reduced tension on the neck gives the strings a ‘floppy’ feel. Additionally, I know he favours lighter gauge strings (30-90 I think) which I imagine a better for bending. Maybe radius plays a part aswell. I believe his current Status KingBass has a 16” radius, so pretty flat (ideal for getting the strings nice and close to the fingerboard).

I'm not that technically proficient, so I wondered if any of the tech-heads on here could shed some light?
Cheers.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Greg.Bassman

[scrumpymike]

You'd certainly need to start with a bass that's been designed to suit your style and built to perfection. Then, if your set-up skills are anything like mine, you'd need to hire the best bass-guitar tech you could find. Oh, and you seemingly string it with rubber bands

[Conan]

I've noticed similar in Rush videos. Geddy Lee's action seems to be ridiculously low, and yet he really digs in! When I try to set an action as low as that I get terrible fret buzz and choking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWCVIb_ku_Y

Edited March 7, 2017 by Conan

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1488901886' post='3252789']
I've noticed similar in Rush videos. Geddy Lee's action seems to be ridiculously low, and yet he really digs in! When I try to set an action as low as that I get terrible fret buzz and choking...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWCVIb_ku_Y[/media]
[/quote]

I see what you mean! (I could be wrong but) Compared to a fender jazz say, I'm sure rickenbackers are slightly shorter in scale (33" I think), and a radius of 10". So not drastically flatter, but flatter nevertheless. Maybe these have something to do with it.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Greg.Bassman

[Conan]

[quote name='Greg.Bassman' timestamp='1489005801' post='3253733']
I see what you mean! (I could be wrong but) Compared to a fender jazz say, I'm sure rickenbackers are slightly shorter in scale (33" I think), and a radius of 10". So not drastically flatter, but flatter nevertheless. Maybe these have something to do with it.
[/quote]

The action looks very similar on his Jazz basses!

[dmccombe7]

Mark King does get some fret buzz in the clip but he is a very aggressive style and it suits what he does.
Geddy Lee i just can't tell how good the action is on his bass from the angles but it does look reasonably low too.

I guess when you have a bass tech looking after your gear its always in perfect condition and set up for you.
I would love to hear their views on how they set up a bass for the artist.

Dave

[Kiwi]

In my experience at least, it's not possible to get low action on all basses because wood isn't a very consistent material. Even in expensive instruments there can be inconsistencies in the fingerboard (s -curves, slight twists, humidity changes etc.) that are barely noticable to the naked eye but enough to rob the action of a mm. In mass manufactured instruments there's also the issue of frets that aren't seated properly that flex under the load of a sanding beam.

Basses I've found with consistently low action tend to have very rigid necks like Status, Alembic, Steinberger, Pedulla Buzz series and Vigier. The frets are solidly seated and the neck curves consistently under tension, so its relatively easy to dress the necks well. Whether someone likes the sound of a super rigid neck is another thing because they tend to be brighter and less forgiving of poor technique.

Some manufacturers like Smith deliberately soften their necks a little to dampen the highs a little but it makes the necks less rigid and less able to provide low action.

Lowest action I've ever played was a Status Series 2000. It felt like the strings had been glued to the fingerboard. But my Alembic gets pretty close.

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='scrumpymike' timestamp='1488901446' post='3252784']
... you'd need to hire the best bass-guitar tech you could find...
[/quote]

Any recommendations? lol

[Chris2112]

I believe Mark's Alembic basses were 34" scale, but of course, strung with light strings.

One of the key elements for low action setup is straightness of the neck. For good low action, I look for as straight a neck as possible with just a touch of relief so that the strings don't ground out at the higher frets. This was something I got from Jeff Berlin, who typically has a super low action. You'll end up with a bass that needs a more sensitive touch to play cleanly, but once you've got the touch you can really get it working.

A good tech will be able to address this, but so long as the actual neck and fretwork are up to the task, a straight neck with adjustments to saddle height and the pickup height would be the way I'd tackle it. If you want less lateral tension for big bends like Mark does, lighter strings are handy.

[chris_b]

The frets at the top of the fretboard on a Sadowsky get gradually lower so the action can be taken down even further.

[Manton Customs]

Sadly, there is no easy trick to be able to play like your bass heroes....other than practice and practice some more. I'm sure the likes of Mark King could play really well on a crap bass with a poor setup. That's not to say setup is not important...it is. But you may be overlooking the fact that you're already there setup wise...this observation is based on your other threads where you say your luthier has already setup and addressed the frets on your bass. By all means take it to another luthier, but don't expect miracles.

I'd also add, there really isn't any way to accurately judge action by watching a video like that, a half MM is a big deal in setup, but certainly not visible in a video like that. There's also rarely a point in the video where he's not fretting/muting/popping a note, which also makes it difficult to properly judge. Again I'm not saying his action isn't low, I'm sure it is. But it's not going to be outside the boundaries of what any good tech/luthier can achieve.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Manton Customs

[scrumpymike]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1489433049' post='3256906']
Sadly, there is no easy trick to be able to play like your bass heroes....other than practice and practice some more. I'm sure the likes of Mark King could play really well on a crap bass with a poor setup. That's not to say setup is not important...it is. But you may be overlooking the fact that you're already there setup wise...this observation is based on your other threads where you say your luthier has already setup and addressed the frets on your bass. By all means take it to another luthier, but don't expect miracles.

I'd also add, there really isn't any way to accurately judge action by watching a video like that, a half MM is a big deal in setup, but certainly not visible in a video like that. There's also rarely a point in the video where he's not fretting/muting/popping a note, which also makes it difficult to properly judge. Again I'm not saying his action isn't low, I'm sure it is. But it's not going to be outside the boundaries of what any good tech/luthier can achieve.
[/quote]

Wise words!

[scrumpymike]

[quote name='Greg.Bassman' timestamp='1489288512' post='3255780']
Any recommendations? lol
[/quote]

I've only ever used 2 luthiers: the first gave me the action you are looking for; then we moved 300 miles and the second one didn't but charged me more!! (Don't use him any more, and he's dead anyway - none of my doing honest )

Edited March 14, 2017 by scrumpymike

[markdavid]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1489432592' post='3256900']
The frets at the top of the fretboard on a Sadowsky get gradually lower so the action can be taken down even further.
[/quote] This is what the people who did a fret dress on my mustang bass did,really helps in getting the action nice and low

[markdavid]

Just wanted to add that low action can be achieved on pretty much any properly functioning bass as long as the following conditions are met
1. Nothing physically wrong with the neck(e.g neck warped or truss rod broken)
2. Neck relief is correct
3. Frets are level
4. Saddles are able to go low enough
5. Players technique allows for low action


Also, was wondering what people here consider low action, I took one of my basses for a setup and brought one of my other basses along to the luthier for him to try and match the setup and he was amazed how low I had the action. I also [u]always[/u] find the setup on other peoples basses to be too high

Edited March 15, 2017 by markdavid

[EMG456]

[quote name='Manton Customs' timestamp='1489433049' post='3256906']
Sadly, there is no easy trick to be able to play like your bass heroes....other than practice and practice some more. I'm sure the likes of Mark King could play really well on a crap bass with a poor setup. That's not to say setup is not important...it is. But you may be overlooking the fact that you're already there setup wise...this observation is based on your other threads where you say your luthier has already setup and addressed the frets on your bass. By all means take it to another luthier, but don't expect miracles.
[/quote]

This is exactly right. Back in the dim and very distant past when I was starting out, I obsessed with a low action for my first good bass - a Rick 4001. I've always been quite hands on when it comes to understanding how things work and I fettled that bass endlessly but still couldn't get the action I (thought) I wanted without a lot of fret buzz.

I took it to a local shop which was run by a pro bass player to see what he thought could be done. He played it and announced that it was one of the best set up basses he had ever played! "What about the buzzing?", I asked. "Well," he said - "can you hear it buzzing just now?" I couldn't. He explained that the problem was me and my technique or indeed, the lack of it. He could make the bass buzz if he wanted by hitting the notes harder or not by playing with a lighter touch. It was a sobering but excellent lesson to have.

I have since set up all my basses with exactly that sort of action and it has stood me in good stead. I believe that players like Mark King use a similar type of action but they tend to be unconstrained as to what type of sound they use and it usually is a full range, bright sound. Players who prefer a more traditional bass tone or who are constrained by having to provide a particular sound to suit record producers or band leaders/ musical directors may well be forced into higher actions on their basses just to eliminate the possibility of rogue fret buzz/ clank creeping in.

[Greg.Bassman]

Sadly, there is no easy trick to be able to play like your bass heroes....other than practice and practice some more. I'm sure the likes of Mark King could play really well on a crap bass with a poor setup. That's not to say setup is not important...it is. But you may be overlooking the fact that you're already there setup wise...this observation is based on your other threads where you say your luthier has already setup and addressed the frets on your bass. By all means take it to another luthier, but don't expect miracles.

Wise words indeed! But let me be clear on why I posted this thread (and indeed any other thread detailing ‘low action’).

I have broke both my wrists numerous times over recent years; weakening them considerably. This has made them more prone to fatigue when over-worked for extended periods of playing. Subsequently, I prefer my action as low as I can possibly get it; this way, I don’t have to press the fingerboard as hard to fret notes.

If I could articulate myself on a technical level, then I would; but sadly, I’m not that proficient. Instead, I have to make reference to youtube clips to make my point. My quest for the ultimate ‘low action’ is not an attempt to be like mark king, but rather to aid my wrists! lol.

Cheers Manton. Edited December 6, 2017 by Greg.Bassman

[chris_b]

With your requirements, after a low action I'd be looking at very light strings.

[EMG456]

In which case, you must keep striving. Some luthiers don't push action adjustments for basses very far simply because most players don't demand it.

So if it's not right, take it back and have them look at it again. Do take note though that the lowest of actions can only be achieved when all aspects of a neck are perfect. It must be straight after truss rod tension is applied, the fingerboard must be fastidiously levelled and the frets must be dressed to perfection. If one luthier can't get it, you may need to go to a different one.

Lighter gauge strings will help simply because they are under less tension and so are easier to fret but remember that the lighter the strings and the lower the action, the softer you must play before the dreaded clank/ buzz appears. It's not easy- you'll need to work at it but players like MK prove that it is a viable approach.

Best of luck - I hope you can get something sorted out.

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1489703410' post='3259168']
With your requirements, after a low action I'd be looking at very light strings.
[/quote]

Hi Chris B. Yes, I use 40-95's. I could go lighter (ie 35's etc), but I feel you lose something in the low-end. 40-95's give me a good amount of 'snap', while retaining a suitable amount of low-end 'groin' lol.

[markdavid]

[quote name='Greg.Bassman' timestamp='1489703950' post='3259171']


Hi Chris B. Yes, I use 40-95's. I could go lighter (ie 35's etc), but I feel you lose something in the low-end. 40-95's give me a good amount of 'snap', while retaining a suitable amount of low-end 'groin' lol.
[/quote] i use 40-100 gauge strings on a short scale bass with super low action so i would think that 40-95 or 35-95 on a long scale is definitely viable for low action

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='markdavid' timestamp='1489740343' post='3259293']
...i would think that 40-95 or 35-95 on a long scale is definitely viable for low action
[/quote]

Very reassuring, cheers!

[quote name='markdavid' timestamp='1489740343' post='3259293']
i use 40-100 gauge strings on a short scale bass with super low action...
[/quote]

Interesting. I have been looking into short scale basses myself recently. Tried a 30" fender mustang at my local guitar store; felt very strange at first, but I'm sure I could warm to it in time. I'm currently looking into 32" scale basses, but can't find one anywhere to try- ideally something jazz style. The best my local can offer is the Gary Jarman signature (32"), it has more of a precision neck profile though (not my preferred)- but I'm sure I could try it for size.

Do you mind me asking what short scale [i]you[/i] use?

[markdavid]

[quote name='Greg.Bassman' timestamp='1489765505' post='3259662']
Very reassuring, cheers!



Interesting. I have been looking into short scale basses myself recently. Tried a 30" fender mustang at my local guitar store; felt very strange at first, but I'm sure I could warm to it in time. I'm currently looking into 32" scale basses, but can't find one anywhere to try- ideally something jazz style. The best my local can offer is the Gary Jarman signature (32"), it has more of a precision neck profile though (not my preferred)- but I'm sure I could try it for size.

Do you mind me asking what short scale [i]you[/i] use?
[/quote]
No problem, I use the Fender Mustang PJ and the Squier Jaguar short scale, I am fairly sure they both have jazz width 38mm necks, both fantastic basses, have tried long scale but feels awkward whereas short scale just feel completely natural to me

[Greg.Bassman]

[quote name='markdavid' timestamp='1489766505' post='3259677']
No problem, I use the Fender Mustang PJ and the Squier Jaguar short scale, I am fairly sure they both have jazz width 38mm necks...
[/quote]

Great. The 'Mustang PJ' is the one I tried. Like I say, alittle unusual at first, but I'm sure I could warm to it

Edited March 17, 2017 by Greg.Bassman

[Marc S]

In the video to which the OP posted a link - Mark king really is bending those strings a lot
It may be mainly down to the (light) gauge of the strings - but it may also be down to the make / brand

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of flatwound strings (despite also playing DB) but some wise words from flats players on here pointed me in the direction of Thomastik Infeldt flats (TI's). I wanted some flats for my fretless, and tried some used TI's bought from someone on this forum...

I couldn't (and still can't) get over just how low tension TI's are Don't know if MK is using them in that video - it's hard to tell, as even the sound will be processed and EQ'ed by the engineers on the sound desk.

EDIT: I used to obsess about trying to get as low an action as possible - but I've since discovered, I actually don't really like the action too low. I've got several basses, and some are set up a bit differently - and I like playing different styles, on different basses, but mostly, I'd like to be able to pick up almost any bass, and not worry about how it's set up....

Edited April 10, 2017 by Marc S