If you could only choose one octave pedal

[Al Krow]

[quote name='SpcMnk' timestamp='1496841454' post='3314225']
If I had to choose one I would have a hard time deciding between the Octabvre (sounds the same as the OC2 but is faster with the octave tone) and the Octron (which has its own fat tone and really like the fuzzed octave up)
[/quote]

With a bit more pedal experience under my belt, I guess I'm coming to realise the benefits of analogue over digital i.e. better warmth / less sterile tone and not suffering the same latency issues being key advantages for analogue vs being able to track lower / provide polyphonic tracking (benefits of digital) but which I'm less likely to be using live. Having noted various A/B comments from fellow BCers, it seems that:
- 3 Leaf Octabvre (mini)
- Aguilar Octamizer
- MXR M288

Are three of the leading analogue contenders and seem to just edge it over the Cog T16 (47 or 65), which is also another really good pedal.

Quite a glowing review of the 3 Leaf by Premier Guitar:

[i][color=#262626][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"3Leaf nailed it with the Octabvre Mini. The tracking is accurate and quick with tones that masterfully replicate classic octave effects and synthy sounds. And as someone familiar with the original Octabvre pedal, I can say with confidence that the miniature version is a noticeable improvement in terms of both tone and tracking." [/font][/color][/i]

[color=#262626][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I see that all three of the above pedals I've [/font][/color][color=#262626][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]shortlisted [/font][/color][color=#262626][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]are in stock at Bass Direct...I think a trip to that store is definitely on the cards! [/font][/color]

[quote name='CameronJ' timestamp='1501978275' post='3348622']
I'll heartily recommend an Aguilar Octamizer. One of the best octave pedals I've tried, hands down. And I own several! Currently running an Octamizer, a COG T16, a 3Leaf Octabvre mini and a DOD Meatbox but out of those 4 the only one I can 100% say I'll NEVER sell is the Octamizer. In fact, I'll probably buy another one at some point! It's analog, so no lag, and has an excellent range of sounds available with th filter knob. Truly delicious.
[/quote]

Cameron - I see from a related thread you already own a number of the leading analogue pedals! Interested in getting your thoughts on why you prefer the Aguilar to the 3 Leaf mini (and if you fancy letting go of your 3 Leaf mini please drop me a line)?

Edited August 13, 2017 by Al Krow

[tonyxtiger]

Just to muddy the water, and just my personal opinion of the ones I've owned.

The MXR was a good tracking octaver with a tone more suited to funk stuff.
The pog was a great tracker but with a sterile tone
The Octron was a good tracker with a great tone and the best upper octave I've heard, a real jack white screamer.
The COGs can be tricky with tracking but if you're bold enough to change some components you can tune them to your bass, Tom helped me with that. Then you are rewarded with a sub octave that is flexible tone wise (somewhere between the Octabvre/mutron/oc2 vibe) and importantly a volume control that goes way loud. Easily the loudest sub of any pedal I've used.
So if you are running it through say, a fuzz that sucks some low end you can adjust. There's even an effects loop on the T65 and 70.
The eventide pitchfactor while spendy is outstanding, any pitches you want in any order, with delays, arpegiators etc. And tracks better than anything, even drop tuned.


So again, just for me, digital = eventide. Analogue = COG.

I'm awaiting the arrival of a KMA Moai Maea so fingers crossed for that one also.

[dannybuoy]

Interesting about the COG mods, my T16 was quieter than an OC-2, did your mod give it more volume?

Also I reckon the POG and Digitech Whammy track and sound better than Eventide's algorithms. This is just based on a few versus comparisons out there on Youtube however such as this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92A5Gv0NlU8

Pedal A is the Eventide and it has a bit more latency and glitches out every now and then whereas B (the Micro POG) is solid.

[T-Bay]

[quote name='dood' timestamp='1490713742' post='3267312']
TC Sub n' Up! Did I say that already? I'm sure I recommended it somewhere.
[/quote]
It may have been on my thread. I have had one a few weeks now. First impressions were ok, monophonic was a little disappointing, poly a bit better. Then I starting messing with the TonePrint and suddenly it's a different animal and I love it. I just wish the three positions could be three TonePrint maps.

[Dood]

[quote name='T-Bay' timestamp='1503062257' post='3355433']
It may have been on my thread. I have had one a few weeks now. First impressions were ok, monophonic was a little disappointing, poly a bit better. Then I starting messing with the TonePrint and suddenly it's a different animal and I love it. I just wish the three positions could be three TonePrint maps.
[/quote]

I agree with the tweaking in the TP editor. I think it's easily missed and the bit that makes the SNU an incredible piece of kit. I love that you can sculpt not only the character but EQ curve of each of the three voices. For example I like to take a bit of top off the octave up and remove the sub bass on the -1 Octave to make it sound smoother and tighter. It's like having an OC2 which tracks better, behaves itself and goes much lower! Open E string for sure every time.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='tonyxtiger' timestamp='1503007871' post='3355092']
The COGs can be tricky with tracking but if you're bold enough to change some components you can tune them to your bass, Tom helped me with that. Then you are rewarded with a sub octave that is flexible tone wise (somewhere between the Octabvre/mutron/oc2 vibe) and importantly a volume control that goes way loud. Easily the loudest sub of any pedal I've used.

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]....So again, just for me, digital = eventide. Analogue = COG. [/font][/color]
[/quote]

Hey - that's a really useful summary. Just picking up on your comments about the COG (as I think I've firmly jumped ship to the analogue camp, this week anyway!). My response to your suggestion is that's all very well if you have your and Tom's (or dannybuoy's or dood's) expertise. But for the rest of us who are more likely to worry about wrecking rather than enhancing a pedal by taking it apart (and at the very least voiding a warranty if the thing was new), and have to take the COG "as is" would you agree that an "un-enhanced" Cog is going to fall a little short of the other 3 analogue pedals I've short listed? And actually that's kinda entirely reasonable, given the Cog's lower price?

[dannybuoy]

It's weird how my experience of the COG was so different - I thought the tracking was amazingly good out of the box. It's a great sounding octave for adding a beefy sub under your higher register playing, but I just preferred the tone (and volume) of the 3Leaf when soloed, and at the time I was chasing that solo keyboard synth style effect.

I don't think looking at it in terms of it being a low priced poor quality pedal is fair - COG pedals are extremely well made, better than most mass produced stuff, and the only reason it's cheaper is probably because they are made in the UK and imports are expensive these days!

[Johnny Wishbone]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1503085295' post='3355667']
It's weird how my experience of the COG was so different - I thought the tracking was amazingly good out of the box. It's a great sounding octave for adding a beefy sub under your higher register playing
[/quote]

Got to agree, plus it's way louder than my OC2. For me the filter control on the COG is the key - super clean subs through to synthy filth, and all points in between.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1503085295' post='3355667']
It's weird how my experience of the COG was so different - I thought the tracking was amazingly good out of the box. It's a great sounding octave for adding a beefy sub under your higher register playing, but I just preferred the tone (and volume) of the 3Leaf when soloed, and at the time I was chasing that solo keyboard synth style effect.

I don't think looking at it in terms of it being a low priced poor quality pedal is fair - COG pedals are extremely well made, better than most mass produced stuff, and the only reason it's cheaper is probably because they are made in the UK and imports are expensive these days!
[/quote]

Hey DB you're pushing my phrase "lower price" further than I intended. I'm certainly not saying the T16 is a low priced poor quality pedal! Indeed, at £140 for the T16 (and £170 for the T65) it's certainly not "cheap", it's just [i]a bit [/i]cheaper than the MXR (£170), Aguilar (£180) and 3Leaf mini (£200) and it would therefore be reasonable to expect it to be a little less high performing than these three? From all the feedback / comments I've seen suggests these three do indeed just "edge" over the T16. (And it's good that, for once, there does seem to be a correlation between price and quality!). However, in terms of bang for buck the T16 probably comes out as the outright winner! And it definitely takes up minimal real estate on a pedal board!

Edited August 18, 2017 by Al Krow

[dannybuoy]

Price is usually a poor indicator of performance, especially when the differences aren't that great. The biggest reason for those price differences are due to how and where they are manufactured, and how many they produce. E.g the Mooer Tender Octave outperforms the EHX Micro POG which cost 3 times as much!

[Sibob]

Yeah really odd to hear of the COG issues, mine has always been excellent, but then I've had years of teasing the best out of my OC-2s.
I've had people at Bass bashes surprised at hearing me get an OC-2 track down to a low F#.....you just gotta know how lol.

Not really heard the Eventides, but it's interesting to hear the comment above about preferring the POG/Digitech upper octave.
The POG is fine, but the Line6 M range pitching is far and above my fave. It's low octave is incredibly natural too. So much so that I set up a bunch of patches that dropped my sound a semi-tone per patch, with no dry signal. Have gigged that in Eb for example (because the guitarist for that band tuned down) without anyone noticing I had a pedal on!

So for synthy analogue vibes: OC-2 or COG
For digital / higher octave: Line6 M range

Si

[Al Krow]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1503085295' post='3355667']
It's weird how my experience of the COG was so different - I thought the tracking was amazingly good out of the box. It's a great sounding octave for adding a beefy sub under your higher register playing, but I just preferred the tone (and volume) of the 3Leaf when soloed, and at the time I was chasing that solo keyboard synth style effect...COG pedals are extremely well made, better than most mass produced stuff, and the only reason it's cheaper is probably because they are made in the UK and imports are expensive these days!
[/quote]
[quote name='Johnny Wishbone' timestamp='1503089488' post='3355701']
Got to agree, plus it's way louder than my OC2. For me the filter control on the COG is the key - super clean subs through to synthy filth, and all points in between.
[/quote]
[quote name='Sibob' timestamp='1503094893' post='3355754']
Yeah really odd to hear of the COG issues, mine has always been excellent, but then I've had years of teasing the best out of my OC-2s.
...So for synthy analogue vibes: OC-2 or COG
[/quote]

Cheers guys. Well that's three really favourable responses on the COG T16 and making me think I should definitely revisit my hesitation about this pedal! If it's also a UK firm then all to the good!

[lee650]

Until recently i was running a COG T16 and an OC2 on my board. I loved my T16 it tracked fantasticly and has a great variety of tones with the filter. I only sold it ad I needed funds to buy a Cali76 and there was a wanted ad up for one,so I was able to sell it quickly. I didn't have any issuea with its volume, mind you I don't with my OC2 either I'll be buying a T65 as soon as I can,as i love the idea of the loop for parallel octave effects

[Al Krow]

[quote name='lee650' timestamp='1503132944' post='3355894']
Until recently i was running a COG T16 and an OC2 on my board. I loved my T16 it tracked fantasticly and has a great variety of tones with the filter.
[/quote]
[quote name='Japhet' timestamp='1490772936' post='3267751']
Of the analogue Octave pedals, I had the T16 but it wouldn't track anywhere near low enough.
[/quote]
[quote name='tonyxtiger' timestamp='1503007871' post='3355092']
The COGs can be tricky with tracking
[/quote]

Cheers Lee that's another +1 in favour of the COGs being fine with tracking, with Japhet and Tony having the opposite experience. So that's +4 / -2 or to put it another way one third of BCers who have expressed a view on this thread have had concerns about the COG's tracking.

I know Cameron has one of these also (in his ever expanding collection of octave pedals!) but prefers his Aguilar Ocatimizer as his goto octave pedal. Let me see if I can meet up with him some time soon and have an A/B of the lot with him. I know he is planning to do a more detailed A/B Octave review for us BCers, which I am looking forward to.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Al Krow

[tonyxtiger]

I should clarify that the COG was not a bad tracker. I think I make their life difficult because of pickup position, heavy gauges, drop timings, and hitting pretty hard with a plectrum.
That aside the mod is not for volume simply changing a couple of cap values to tweak tracking response. No soldering required, just pull out and replace new. Best check with Tom beforehand to see if yours is possible as some changes were made/ revisions etc.
If I understand correctly octave pedals use a high end roll off to your ingoing signal I think to aid with tracking. I think changing the values effects this to help tweak to your own instrument.
There are obviously off the shelf ones that may just work best for you but sometimes you kiss a few frogs. I just loved the COG and wanted to persist with it.

When I try the KMA I'll let you all know how it goes.

[Al Krow]

[quote name='tonyxtiger' timestamp='1503135681' post='3355922']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]I should clarify that the COG was not a bad tracker...[/font][/color]I just loved the COG and wanted to persist with it.
[/quote]

Cheers Tony. That final statement is a BIG vote in favour of the COG! Ok I'll make that +4 / +0 / -1 in terms of experience with tracking (which is a much better ratio) and it's great that Tom is so up for getting involved with tweaking his pedals.

Edited August 19, 2017 by Al Krow

[dannybuoy]

Btw, word is the newer COGs now have more output volume, which fixes my biggest problem with the T16 I had.

Al, there are just as many people reporting they think the COG is the best octaver they've ever had as there are those that were disappointed with it. You're just going to have to try one yourself, otherwise it's like conducting a survey to find out if you should try eating marmite!

[Al Krow]

[quote name='dannybuoy' timestamp='1503136735' post='3355928']
Btw, word is the newer COGs now have more output volume, which fixes my biggest problem with the T16 I had. Al, there are just as many people reporting they think the COG is the best octaver they've ever had as there are those that were disappointed with it. You're just going to have to try one yourself, otherwise it's like conducting a survey to find out if you should try eating marmite!
[/quote]

Cheers DB. Actually you're wrong - there seem to be FAR more folk with a positive word to say about COGs on this forum (just go through the comments on this thread) than have been disappointed with them! Something like tracking I think is actually a more "objective" test whereas tonal colour / synth / girth / growl effects is going to be more "subjective" / personal taste, I agree.

Interestingly if you read back your own comments (which for some reason, I've been giving weight to as you seem to have played with far more pedals than most!) you seem to have come round from being somewhat negative [i]"[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]the COG T16 sounds nothing like the Octabvre or OC-2. The Octabvre has way more midrange punch and is the better choice for soloed octave IMHO" , [/font][/color][/i][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]to now being a fan again - but it sounds like that is because the COGs themselves have improved and the newer ones have dealt with your main concern?[/font][/color]

A couple of Qs - if I could pick your or another of the COG fanclub's brains:
When did the newer COGs with the greater output volume come out? (That could certainly make a difference in deciding whether to go for a new or a second hand one).
Is there a major benefit in spending a bit extra and going for a T65 or a T47 rather than the T16?

I'm definitely open to giving them a try!

PS Actually I think I've answered both the above questions:

The New T16 has the new "simplistic circles" artwork below AND is the only model with the new circuitry (i.e. the T47, T65 and T70 are still on the old circuitry). In which case, it seems to me that the new T16 (is it only me that is reminded of Russian T tanks and playing wargames as a youth by this nomenclature) is the one to go for?!


[center][url="http://www.cogeffects.co.uk/t-16-octave.php"][/url][/center]



[b][b]The T-16 is back!!![/b][/b]

[b]The smallest analogue octave pedal in the world is back and better than ever, with increased output for more flexibility when using sub octave without the clean tone. Never mind what's going on over at Summer NAMM, this is the octave pedal your pedalboard needs and deserves! The new T-16 has brand new simplistic "circles" artwork, and the rest of the octave range feature this new artwork too. There are no circuit changes to the T-47, T-65 or T-70[/b]

Edited August 19, 2017 by Al Krow

[dannybuoy]

They changed about 4 weeks ago according to a Talkbass thread, but could well have been earlier than that, and the volume issue might not have affected the whole range, so best to ask Tom.

If you want an octave to fill out the sound with an added sub in the background then the COG is awesome. The tracking is stellar and being able to dial the tone right down to sub bass makes it blend really well.

If you want to use it 100% wet, essentially just using it as a synth pedal and playing higher up to compensate for the difference in pitch, the Octabvre Mini just has a great solo voice that you can't get from the COG. Conversely, this punchy mid-heavy tone doesn't work as well as the COG when blended with clean, where a milder sound often works better.

[Al Krow]

Cheers DB, that's actually been massively helpful (together with the comments from the rest of the guys too) - cheers buddy.

In terms of live use, I would be looking to use a dedicated [i]analogue[/i] octave pedal to provide a wet / dry blend - precisely because of lack of latency and warmth of the sound that an analogue pedal can provide.

For 100% wet / synth solo sound I can easily programme my Zoom B3n for this and it should do the job just fine: latency is not going to be an issue with 100% wet (and actually the Zoom isn't too bad for latency anyway) and the fact that digital is already more synthy / less warm than analogue is no longer a disadvantage.

I think you are saying that:
- from your experience, the COG actually beats the Octabvre mini (which together with the Aguilar Octamizer was at the top of my list octave pedals if I could find one second hand) for a blended wet / dry. Well that's cool, those two US pedals aren't cheap new or second hand these days, so that will save me a few £quid.

- the newer COG T16 beats the old COG T16 (that's going to cost a bit more as there won't be any second hand "new edition" COG T16s currently available or for a while).

Ok I've been following this thread since March and I think I have [i]finally[/i] got my head round where I'm heading! ...I'll be dropping Tom at COG Effects an email very shortly!

Edited August 19, 2017 by Al Krow

[tonyxtiger]

I think it was just the T16 that needed the vol boost. There is no shortage on the others.

Now Al, if only there was a way you could try one without having to buy it blind.

I know you are sceptical, but imagine if there was somewhere you could rent a T65 to try it with your own rig and see if it worked for you? Then buy with confidence or compare with another?

Then imagine you could also use your basschat discount code.

Edited August 19, 2017 by tonyxtiger

[Al Krow]

Tony that potentially sounds good.

So, for arguments sake, let's say I have a day job and my bands don't meet up more than once every couple of weeks and that I quite like to take a bit of time to get to know and experience a pedal and it's nuances.

There's often a bit of a learning curve to them, right? For example, I'm still learning new things about my Zoom B3n and coming up with ideas for new effect patches and sims etc (e.g. the 100% wet octave-down synth patch with a digital pedal which, for me, came directly out of the exchanges above) and I suspect that I'll similarly be taking a bit of time be getting to know my Two Notes Le Bass and the interaction of its Channel A and Channel B drives under hot and cold fusion and also how to get the best from my Aguilar TLC when playing different genres and bass styles when they both arrive. Both of which I've done a fair bit of research on before buying and managed to get for a "fair" second hand price.

But obviously the real test is going to be getting to know and playing the pedals for myself, without any deadlines or time pressure; I have enough of those to deal with in my day job! If after six months I decide to sell them on 'cos they are not for me then I may be £20 or so down on each.

How much would you say, realistically, it would cost me to rent a couple of pedals for six months to give me a similar opportunity to live with and really get to know them?

[tonyxtiger]

Ok Al, 6 months is beyond our business model as you probably would be better buying.
Currently we are aiming more towards short term rentals for sessions, comparisons or just if you fancy trying something. A monthly comfort purchase for the enquiring pedal head.
Once the library grows, Ideally something like a Netflix monthly subscription where you chose what you want.

That said, as a Basschat member send me an email and I can try to sort something out for you on an extended period.

Cheers, Darren.

[Al Krow]

So I had a play with the Zoom B3n today and kinda turned my expectations on its head:

As a blended wet / dry octave pedal it is just fine with comfortable tracking down to a Low E (using the pitch shift effect) and with minimal latency - so I'm struggling to see that analogue would be much, if any improvement, on the latency front?

As a 100% wet [octave down] synth pedal, which is what I thought the digital Zoom would be good at emulating, I have only so far managed to get to a "it moderately sucks!" patch so far...

Edited August 20, 2017 by Al Krow

[dannybuoy]

You will be able to get many synth effects out of the Zoom, but nothing approaching the OC-2. Try and find some demos to hear the OC-2 octave soloed on bass if you're not familiar with how it sounds!