cris the man Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 despite taking a so called 'GCSE' in music tech i have recorded one track taking matters into my own hands , ive decided to try and record at home can anyone offer me some advice for getting a really big sound from a band ie- the amount of volume used on certain instruments? how to stop multiple bass layers from sounding muddy any must use effects? how to keep the volume high but make VOX soar over the top? (all of my recordings seem to have the band very quiet) im trying to 'mimic' a sound like the foo fighters, where everything is balanced, giving a 'wall of sound' many thanks cris the man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crez5150 Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 What's the recording format your using, desk, outboard etc.....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stylon Pilson Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 In a nutshell, you need to mix it so that it sounds good. A more specific tip, which might help you, is to use fairly heavy equalisation so that each instrument has its own space in the spectrum. So for the vocals, roll off the bass and boost the treble. For the bass, roll off the treble and boost the bass. For the guitars, roll off the bass and treble and boost the mids. Remember that the Foo Fighters have a great deal of resources at their disposal, so don't be disappointed if it takes you a few years until your mixes sound as good as theirs. S.P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I'm assuming you have a load of audio tracks lined up in a DAW on your computer and you just can't get your mix to sound right? I think a good tip is to start with the drums. Get the sounding great on their own, and have them so loud that they would clip if you didn't...... put a limiter on the kick and snare so that the very loudest peaks get "limited" down. IF the drums sound great, start mixing in the bass. Keep listening to the drums, and as they start to sound less good, think about what frequencies in the bass are affecting the drums, and try to EQ to compensate. If you have multiple layers of bass - why? Are they doubling a single part? For what reason? It may be necessary to cross them over using EQ, you may have to inverse the phase of one of them etc. Then add in the guitar and vocals. A good tip above is "use fairly heavy equalisation". You may end up with EQ settings that look rediculous, but SOUND good. If you get a rough mix done, upload it here and we can tell you what to do to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archetype Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 the best way i use is to turn the monitors up. When recording have the meters average around -18dBFS (use a tone generator to find where this is in your software cause i does move alot) this will keep the signal to noise ratio at a very good rate. and bring in signals that leave plenty of head room. This will look really low on the meters. and you may find your turning the monitors up. but it means when your recording the vocals and the singer suddenly shouts your less likely to clip. Clipping in digital audio = really bad, data gone and lost and not coming back. so lave yourself plenty of room. Now if you did that and got your mix sounding amazing the bouce will sound really quiet compared to other tracks. thats where some mastering would come in to bring that up without clipping. as for getting big thumping kicks and the likes. spend time with your mic's when you record. dont just throw it in and fix it in the mix. get it placed well and giving the sound you are looking for. The use of EQ's should be giving everything that extra definition and sparkle, not polishing a turd for lack of better words. With that said, experiment and see what work. every producer/engineer has their secret tricks. so play about and see what you can get. Archetype Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappygarry Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 get the most important thing in the mix up first - the vocals. Then add the next most important thing (careful here, don't be egotistical, if its a rock thing guitars and drums usually lead, pop its vocals and drums, funk its bass and melody etc..... this is also not set in stone) and the next and so on. This will mean you don't have to force the vocals through a mix but you will build the mix around them. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggsy Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I think as most people have said everyone has their techniques in getting a mix to sound good. It's probably a good idea to post what you have so far so people can give you some specific pointers. As Archetype says, when starting out it's best not to concentrate on volume so much and avoid mixing on the limit of clipping. That way it makes it easier to get the instruments working together and sounding more natural without runing the quality. Eq, compressors/gates and stereo field placement can be used to achieve the wall of sound you're after, so if you want to create more powerful mixes yourself they're good tools to attempt to master. There really is no substitute for knowledge and experience though, which is why mastering is such an expensive process. As a cheap alternative, if you've given yourself a few Db of headroom in the overall mix and got all the instruments and vocals balanced how you like, you could try using a piece of 'finalising' software (or even hardware) to maximise the volume and create a bigger sound. I've tried one called [url="http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/download.asp"]'iZotope Ozone' [/url]in the past which I was really impressed with, it's so easy to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Something I do way too often is linking every channel on my cubase mixer to bring every fader down at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggsy Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I didn't know you could do that.. At the risk of sounding stupid, is that different from using the master fader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesf Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 [quote name='cris the man' post='312864' date='Oct 23 2008, 11:52 AM']despite taking a so called 'GCSE' in music tech i have recorded one track taking matters into my own hands , ive decided to try and record at home can anyone offer me some advice for getting a really big sound from a band ie- the amount of volume used on certain instruments? how to stop multiple bass layers from sounding muddy any must use effects? how to keep the volume high but make VOX soar over the top? (all of my recordings seem to have the band very quiet) im trying to 'mimic' a sound like the foo fighters, where everything is balanced, giving a 'wall of sound' many thanks cris the man[/quote] Here goes my £0.02... Getting a really big sound from a band is quite subjective - I define a 'big sound' as HSAS-style reverb-filled mixes which sound as if they're played in a huge acoustic space. The wall-of-sound you describe, using an extreme example, I liken to the Rammstein ethos of production. To get this effect, it's really quite simple. To start with, double track (record twice) each guitar part. Pan one hard right, and the other hard left - your guitard will have to be super in-time for this not to sound messy though. This will instantly give you a 'bigger' sound. Rammstein used 96 guitar tracks, double tracked with variant panning on Sonne - listen to it if you have it available, and notice the wall-of-sound effect. This can be scaled down, and using two tracks is often enough to create a usable 'big' sound. I've used the technique extensively in my production of metal bands, and also in the production of bluesy stuff with great results which offer great stereophony and a feeling of being 'in' the mix. Be aware that these techniques don't often translate to headphones without a gimmicky-stereo effect, so be prepared to do some extra mixing. Secondly, the term 'volume' is never used in recording or mixing (I know, I'm a big pedant), the term 'level' should be used instead. This is a veritable maze of subjectivity, and whatever sounds good on your monitors, on your ipod and in your car should sound good pretty much anywhere. Without the actual mix in front of them, nobody can comment on this; if they say they can, they're lying to you! To stop multiple bass layers sounding muddy, and I know this may sound counter-intuitive, turn down the bass! Pick you fave which gives the solid foundation for the track; the others will likely just be icing on the proverbial cake. As has been said before in this thread, separation through EQ should be used to create a 'pocket' for each instrument part, although I disagree with the heavy use of EQ suggested - heavy EQ is to be avoided at all costs in the mix unless you're running something from Massenburg or Manley. As for must-use-effects, just because you have a piece of gear doesn't mean you have to use it. Just like when your guitarist buys a flanger pedal and it's 1975 for the next three weeks of band practice, overuse of effects will become wearing ver very quickly. Listen to the music of who you like the sound of, and analyse their effects - do they actually use any? Are they noticeable, or very very subtle? I'd wager the latter. If you must use effects, make them subtle. If you can hear a compressor working, it's working wrong. If any other effects are used, make sure they are for the sake of the music, and not for the sake of using them. Less is more, trust me! Making LEVEL!!!!!! high whilst making the vox soar - use a well-matched-to-the-singer mic an an excellent preamp, through an even better compressor. To get 'that' vocal sound that you hear all over the radio etc, you'll have to spend at least £20,000 so stay realistic. If you're recording metal, 90% of the time the humble SM57 will sound better than any condenser you have in your mic locker, so be prepared to experiment with mics, pres and creative eq and effects to get the vox to sit in the mix. Overall, if your vocal sticks out, it's wrong. You should aim for the vox to 'sit' in the mix, perfectly complemented by the other parts. It should be given it's own pocket as previously discussed, and this alone will make or break the vocal track in a mix, especially a home mix. In mimicking any commercial mix, listen to it first. I know it sounds simple, but seriously, listen to it, make notes on EVERYTHING, write it all down and absorb it. Listen to it on your monitors. Buy better monitors, learn them (listen for about 200 hours to you reference material) and listen at the correct listening levels; this will make a HUGE difference to your mixing potential. In making notes on your desired mixing goals, and monitoring correctly, you'll be able to do it. Someone made those mixes and so can you - it's all down to experience and practice, so get mixing, have a rest, remix it and remix it until it's perfect. BTW, where did you do a GCSE in music tech, and which exam board accredited it? I taught the Edexcel GCE A Level in Music Technology last year so I'm intrigued as I didn't know such a course existed. Hope this helps, and if the mods want to add this to any kind of recording sticky, feel free - glad to be of service. If any of this is confusing or semantically retarded, I've consumed a large quantity of vintage australian tonight, so do please excuse me! James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesf Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Happy birthday by the way Cris, consider the above pearls of wisdom a present from me! James. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddatom Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 [quote name='Biggsy' post='313096' date='Oct 23 2008, 03:46 PM']I didn't know you could do that.. At the risk of sounding stupid, is that different from using the master fader?[/quote] Well if all your channels are clipping, and you bring down the master fader, you still tend to get distortion from the individual channels before the master fader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggsy Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 [quote name='cheddatom' post='315619' date='Oct 27 2008, 10:30 AM']Well if all your channels are clipping, and you bring down the master fader, you still tend to get distortion from the individual channels before the master fader.[/quote] Ah yes, of course... It's a school day every day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cris the man Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 [quote name='jamesf' post='313376' date='Oct 23 2008, 09:25 PM']BTW, where did you do a GCSE in music tech, and which exam board accredited it? I taught the Edexcel GCE A Level in Music Technology last year so I'm intrigued as I didn't know such a course existed. James.[/quote] its not so much a GCSE, its an NCFE - designed for people who are ready to be employed, it gives UCAS points so its quite good the tips are helping my mixes are comming along quite well i think, i've done a few songs, ill try and send you all a link later on thanks very much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cris the man Posted October 29, 2008 Author Share Posted October 29, 2008 ive just uploaded the songs to the bands myspace feedback appreciated [url="http://www.myspace.com/thebadhabitsworld"]http://www.myspace.com/thebadhabitsworld[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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