Fender announcement. No more rosewood 'boards.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1491850862' post='3275891']
That said, if you don't believe in tonewood then why not go for ebonol and a plastic-foam, lightweight body. [/gripe]
[/quote]
Because ebonol makes a horrid clacky sound when the strings touch it (on a fretless) - yuck.

I would seriously love to take part in a scientifically controlled tonewood blind test.

[Grangur]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1491935493' post='3276652']

Because ebonol makes a horrid clacky sound when the strings touch it (on a fretless) - yuck.

I would seriously love to take part in a scientifically controlled tonewood blind test.
[/quote]
Regretfully it will never happen. Finding enough basses that are identical in every way possible except the body wood is rather unlikely.

Lozz did a similar test of rosewood and maple necks, at the Herts Bass Bash. The rosewood neck basses were consistently more punchy than the maple neck ones. But that, of course, was pure coincidence.

[tom1946]

I don't [size=5]care.[/size]

[size=5][size=3][size=4]I do have some basses with rosewood but they are collectable and I don't play them.[/size][/size][/size]

[size=5][size=3][size=4]Did I mention that I much prefer [size=7]maple.?[size=4] [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

[size=5][size=3][size=4][size=7][size=4]thought so..... [size=5][size=3][size=4][size=7][size=4] [/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

[Hellzero]

Just to clear it out :

Every type of Dalbergia is forbidden (class I), so this means more than 300 types of "rosewood", including the Cocobolo and the famous Rio !

Bubinga and Kosso are in the same basket : they are called Guibourtia by botanists.

The other "endangered" woods are in the class II or III...

[pfretrock]

Some info on CITES on Thomann's page - get/keep a receipt for anything you purchased before January 02 2017:

[color=#8b4513]"You can register items you have previously acquired with your local authority. In order to do this you only need thomann to show the invoice for your product, which you can download at any time from our customer centre. This will suffice as written proof that the instrument or piece of equipment was bought before January 02, 2017, i.e. before the materials contained were classified as endangered."[/color]

Also effect of brexit and importing from the EU: (depends whether there is a good deal or a train crash, I suppose!)


[color=#800000][b]"Deliveries into non-EU countries require a complicated and sometimes lengthy approval procedure.[/b] This may delay delivery by several thomann weeks and may cause further fees in the recipient's country. Please make sure you understand the relevant rules in your country before making a purchase."[/color]

[url="https://www.thomann.de/gb/compinfo_cites.html"]https://www.thomann....info_cites.html[/url]

[pfretrock]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1491904180' post='3276265']
Who's going to pay their food and housing bills now?
[/quote]
They'll get lower pay working in illegal trade?

[JoeEvans]

I like the speckled, streaky ebony promoted by someone or other to ensure that all of the tree got used, rather than only the totally black bits. It has more of the quality the Japanese call Wabi.

[drTStingray]

Having thought about this further, the thing I find alarming about this, if it is a correct interpretation of Fender's position, is the message it is actually giving to their customers - something like this - 'we can't be asked to provide what the market wants so we'll just give it what we're prepared to'.

I'm afraid this sounds reminiscent of quite a number of companies in several industries over the years, most of whom have eventually been consigned to history as a result, even those trading on a 'glorious heritage'.

There are, of course, many other alternative bass manufacturers, many of whom provide a far superior product anyway (and some of whom are persevering with rosewood). Perhaps Fender are in such a parlous financial state they actually can't afford to?

[chris_b]

Err. . . . not sure how you've come to that conclusion.

This is not Fender's fault or a decision they have instigated. No one will be shipping rosewood across borders any more. Sadowsky have already said the same thing. I guess all these guys would be happy to use the large stocks of rosewood they probably have sitting at their works sites, but due to CITES they can't. Any basses being checked at borders and found to have rosewood will be impounded and not returned. If they can afford to wait several months for the paperwork to be issued for each instrument all well and good, but delays of this magnitude will cost companies millions.

I imagine alternative are being sought at great speed because these companies need to resume their overseas sales.

[drTStingray]

I had that uneasy feeling because it's exactly what it sounds like to me - let's see if they offer it through the Custom Shop.

There's a lot of presumption in your post. It is a decision Fender seem to have taken to deal with the issue (of course they haven't caused the issue but the response to the issue is entirely theirs) but it's not necessarily what Gibson and others might do? A cursory glance at major retailers stocks will show that as far as bass is concerned, Fender's business model involves parking large quantities of product (compared with other manufacturers) with retailers. A lower volume producer may have less of a problem.

As I understand it some companies are shipping fully certified rosewood boarded instruments. I wasn't aware of anyone saying they wouldn't until this from Fender.

We will have to wait and see what happens.

Imagine what it could do to the vintage market.....

Edited April 12, 2017 by drTStingray

[chris_b]

As someone already said, Gibson are already not shipping rosewood abroad. They have already been hit with CITES related court cases and fines. Sadowsky (at their low volumes) won't either. Anyone with a bulk export business will have to stop unless they have a magic wand or just make an instant switch to Morado or Maple etc fret boards. That will include all the Asian companies.

Custom builders, including Fender's Custom shop, will probably continue to use up their stock of rosewood because they can inform the individual customer of the restrictions and will presumably only sell within their countries borders. When you make in bulk and send thousands of instruments abroad then that is what CITIES is preventing, because each instrument has to have provenance and paperwork from a government department and apparently the US Civil Service is even slower and less efficient than ours. I would imagine money talks in the East so they might get bulk stamped paperwork. It will be interesting to see what happens when someone attempts to re-export those basses.

Currently individual musicians can still take their instruments across borders, but they probably need a receipt dated before the start of this year. It looks like provenance and "passports" will ultimately be required there as well.

Looks like it's working but the music business is only a bystander caught up in a bigger problem. It's the furniture industry and kick backs to dodgy governments that is destroying the forests.

[stingrayPete1977]

I'd make it illegal to have burst and tort "without" RW!

[fretmeister]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1491937380' post='3276668']
Regretfully it will never happen. Finding enough basses that are identical in every way possible except the body wood is rather unlikely.

Lozz did a similar test of rosewood and maple necks, at the Herts Bass Bash. The rosewood neck basses were consistently more punchy than the maple neck ones. But that, of course, was pure coincidence.
[/quote]

It's a easier than you think. Whatever you want to be the variable, just change that. Swap bodies but move over all the hardware and strings and measure pickup heights etc to be identical.

If comparing necks - then even move the tuners and string retainers over and bolt to the same body for the test.

[mcnach]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1492002094' post='3277063']
It's a easier than you think. Whatever you want to be the variable, just change that. Swap bodies but move over all the hardware and strings and measure pickup heights etc to be identical.

If comparing necks - then even move the tuners and string retainers over and bolt to the same body for the test.
[/quote]


well, even then... because all bodies made of the same material are actually not identical, you're going to need to measure quite a few to get a sense for their natural variation, and THEN you can assess whether the distribution of both body materials are distinct enough or not.

It seems like a lot of work when we already know the answer. Who needs facts?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1492002094' post='3277063']
It's a easier than you think. Whatever you want to be the variable, just change that. Swap bodies but move over all the hardware and strings and measure pickup heights etc to be identical.

If comparing necks - then even move the tuners and string retainers over and bolt to the same body for the test.
[/quote]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1492002631' post='3277073']
well, even then... because all bodies made of the same material are actually not identical, you're going to need to measure quite a few to get a sense for their natural variation, and THEN you can assess whether the distribution of both body materials are distinct enough or not.

It seems like a lot of work when we already know the answer. Who needs facts?
[/quote]

Also you'll have to check that just the action of dis-assembling and then re-assembling the instruments isn't changing the sound either.

[Twigman]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1491987589' post='3276912']


Currently individual musicians can still take their instruments across borders, but they probably need a receipt dated before the start of this year. It looks like provenance and "passports" will ultimately be required there as well.
[/quote]

i am currently awaiting delivery of a Musicman US bass with a RW board....I play many gigs overseas....will I likely have a problem in the future?

It was ordered in Nov last year and the original receipt for the deposit is dated as such.....however it is yet to be delivered.

[Grangur]

And all the bodies need to be cut to the same shape and depth. Otherwise the size of the piece of wood could have an effect.

This will be an interesting one for a Bass Bash. Where's Lozz when you need him?

[HazBeen]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1491850862' post='3275891']
I'm sure the main advantage of the rosewood over the replacement timber will only be that rosewood was slightly cheaper per cubic yard.

The tone might possibly be a tad different, but if you don't believe in tonewood then you won't have anything to stress over. That said, if you don't believe in tonewood then why not go for ebonol and a plastic-foam, lightweight body. [/gripe]
[/quote]

This is actually not a silly suggestion, I will take my graphite necked, phenol fingerboard, composite shell foam filled wooden centre bodied Bogarts over most wooden basses any day of the week. Will Pau Ferro be different to Rosewood? Of course, but it won't make a good bass sound bad or bad bass sound good.

[HazBeen]

[quote name='pfretrock' timestamp='1491940310' post='3276695']
They'll get lower pay working in illegal trade?
[/quote]

They will end up living in Indian Rosewood houses.... pretty woeful as most definitely the worst hit will be the people that have the least.

[Highfox]

On a personal level I'm starting to wonder selfishly how this may now affect a build I am having done.
This bass also needs to be shipped within the EU (at least out to me) 1 year into an almost 2 year wait for this bass.
Anyone care to guess or comment?

With the Fender thing I have 2 maple and 1 rosewood.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Grangur' timestamp='1492005055' post='3277098']
And all the bodies need to be cut to the same shape and depth. Otherwise the size of the piece of wood could have an effect.
[/quote]

And if the bodies were made from multiple pieces the joins would need to be in the same place on each body, bonded with the same type and amount of glue.

[Grangur]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1492007135' post='3277128']
And if the bodies were made from multiple pieces the joins would need to be in the same place on each body, bonded with the same type and amount of glue.
[/quote]

1. Who's paying for all of this?
2. Can I please have one when you're throwing them out at the end?

[cybertect]

Well, the page on Reidys' blog linked to in the OP on this thread been removed entirely.

Google cache shows there was a note added before it was taken down

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:YwWZfKd-CeQJ:https://www.reidys.com/blog/rosewood-no-more-fender-cites-1901/+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

[quote=Reidys]DISCLAIMER: Yesterday, we posted this article based on information received from Fender EMEA stating that they would not be using rosewood as an option for 'necks' (fingerboards) on future models. However, this morning, it has been clarified by Fender that this will only be the case on selected models, and not the entire range. More updates to follow...[/quote]

Make of all that what you will.

[Machines]

So there's some reasonable truth in it. I expect it'll become a luxury addon and low spec instruments will have the newer materal.

[JazzBass4624]

Just read an (on-line) article of the Dutch Music Maker (5 Dec.2016) which states that instruments up to 10kg can be taken across borders without problems. Aparently this only goes for CONSUMERS.
I haven't found any confirmation of this statement yet.