I don't get the whole putting a Fender decal on a non Fender bass thing

[Beer of the Bass]

I saw a baffling guitar advertised on a facebook group today. It was an Ibanez semi, with a distinctive small body shape that isn't copied from any Gibson model, and recognisable Ibanez hardware like their slotted tailpiece, but with the headstock reshaped and rebadged to resemble a Gibson headstock. Why would you do that?

[leftyyorky]

The car analogy is an interesting one, which at least 2 big manufacturers have joined in on. Ford do the ST line, which is basically a focus st without the engine, Audi do the S line which is a similar sort of thing. I've not seen the Ford badge but the Audi badge just looks like an S badge from anymore than 3 feet away because the "line" is so small. To use Jeremy Clarksons analogy he said he couldnt drive a Porsche Cayman because its telling the world that I cant afford a 911. For what its worth I think Clarkson is just a pompous snob who used to be a Yorkshireman.
Back to basses, I own a Squier VM Jazz in maple, and I love it, it plays great, sounds great, looks and feels great, and I've never once thought about putting a Fender decal on it, I'm proud of the instrument as it is.when I was 18 I had an Ibanez Ric copy which I owned for many years, that had a home made Rickenbacker trc on it for about 2 weeks until I thought "who am I kidding?" And put the Ibanez one back on.I dont mind what others do to their basses if it makes them happy and they are not trying to defraud in a sale.
Btw I've got a 4003 now and I've no intention of changing the truss rod cover 😁😁😁

[tonyquipment]

I don't hide the fact I use a cheap bass. In fact, the cheaper it is, the better I feel on it 😁

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1493377701' post='3287887']
There are two reasons to re-badge a bass:
Snobbery.
Fraud.
[/quote]
[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1493457476' post='3288431']
I put the decal on my bitsa because for me, it completed the look of it. Care to tell me where the 'snobbery' lies in that?
And quite frankly, 'fraud' is not an accusation that should be thrown around lightly.
[/quote]

Brand snobbery, pure and simple.

As for fraud, of course it is a major reason for people to use a fake decal. It's the first step anyone would take in trying to pass something off. I don't think 12StringBassist was lightly throwing accusations around, just stating the obvious, which, in turn, has elicited a very strange response from a moderator.

[kodiakblair]

Somebody tried to sell me a Fender once. I saw through the ruse.
[attachment=245571:Wilson Bass (3).jpg][attachment=245569:Wilson Bass (1).jpg]

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='Baxter' timestamp='1493203523' post='3286415']
I've did it with my squier VM telecaster bass, the 70s style one with the big humbucker. I went
the whole hog though with a vintage neck tint and darkened headstock face and old stle decal. I don't see any harm in it, I enjoy having it done - it's for me alone and there's no malice in it. I fancied a 70s style telebass to go with my 51RI so I had both TB models but I'd have to sell my 77 Jazz or my child to fund one. Did it cheap with the squier and the paintwork and some extra chrome. I like it.
The question is now, do I go for a cream or parchment scratchplate or leave it black?
[/quote]

Why not replace the body with a flying V? It's a proper bitsa then. I'm only pulling your leg. I am all for customising according to personal taste. That's why it's called customising. I just don't like unlicensed mass produced stuff.

[mcnach]

[quote name='leftyyorky' timestamp='1495137037' post='3301627']
The car analogy is an interesting one, which at least 2 big manufacturers have joined in on. Ford do the ST line, which is basically a focus st without the engine, Audi do the S line which is a similar sort of thing. I've not seen the Ford badge but the [b]Audi badge just looks like an S badge from anymore than 3 feet away because the "line" is so small[/b]. To use Jeremy Clarksons analogy he said he couldnt drive a Porsche Cayman because its telling the world that I cant afford a 911. For what its worth I think Clarkson is just a pompous snob who used to be a Yorkshireman.
Back to basses, I own a Squier VM Jazz in maple, and I love it, it plays great, sounds great, looks and feels great, and I've never once thought about putting a Fender decal on it, I'm proud of the instrument as it is.when I was 18 I had an Ibanez Ric copy which I owned for many years, that had a home made Rickenbacker trc on it for about 2 weeks until I thought "who am I kidding?" And put the Ibanez one back on.I dont mind what others do to their basses if it makes them happy and they are not trying to defraud in a sale.
Btw I've got a 4003 now and I've no intention of changing the truss rod cover 😁😁😁
[/quote]

I disagree about the Audi S-Line. I think there's no confusion between say an Audi A3 S-Line and an Audi S3... the badge is pretty different, and there are none of the outwardly distinct S-series features.
The S-Line does look a little 'sportier' than the standard models, but it's to do with stuff like the wheels and stuff. The interior of the S-Line is 'pretty', with leather seats etc, and I think that's the sort of thing that attract people to the S-Line, not looking like an S3 or S4 or whatever.

Yes, you guessed it, I own an S-Line A3
I got it used, and the fact it was an S-Line was actually one of the negative points when I went to try it. I don't care for low profile tires and sporty suspension (you feel every little bump on the road, which gets tiring in everyday use), but it looks nice especially inside, it feels great, I loved the seats, it drives really nice... and it was red and the boot fitted my two cabs perfectly... so I went for it.
Mine is the one with the smallest engine in the range, which suited me... I had a 1.6 Golf before, and this is a 1.4 Turbo which is slightly more powerful, with noticeably nicer acceleration, and it's a lot more fun to drive even if it's most definitely not a racing car... and all that while getting a much better MPG than my old Golf.
I don't think anybody sees my car and thinks it's highly powered. It just has nice aesthetic touches compared to the standard version. I only wish it had smaller wheels with higher profile tires and less 'sporty' suspension... although I have to admit I love the way it handles bendy A and B roads, where lots of other cars have to slow down I can just sail through.

ANYWAY... carry on... I just had to come in and defend part of what the S-Line provides. It looks pretty standard and nothing like an S3... "S-Line" just specifies a particular interior and some minor externally visible details like the wheels...

[mikel]

[quote name='12stringbassist' timestamp='1493377701' post='3287887']
There are two reasons to re-badge a bass:
Snobbery.
Fraud.
[/quote]

You missed one....Fashion.

My bro bought a Precision in 1981 when we were in the same band, as it was the bass to have, it was a Fender after all. It had a number of dead spots on the neck, and he was not surprisingly for a newbie, a little shocked. He was told by experienced bassists to learn how to play around them. He wished he hadnt traded in the Rick.

Edited May 19, 2017 by mikel

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='mcnach' timestamp='1495185709' post='3301911']


I disagree about the Audi S-Line. I think there's no confusion between say an Audi A3 S-Line and an Audi S3... the badge is pretty different, and there are none of the outwardly distinct S-series features.
The S-Line does look a little 'sportier' than the standard models, but it's to do with stuff like the wheels and stuff. The interior of the S-Line is 'pretty', with leather seats etc, and I think that's the sort of thing that attract people to the S-Line, not looking like an S3 or S4 or whatever.

Yes, you guessed it, I own an S-Line A3
I got it used, and the fact it was an S-Line was actually one of the negative points when I went to try it. I don't care for low profile tires and sporty suspension (you feel every little bump on the road, which gets tiring in everyday use), but it looks nice especially inside, it feels great, I loved the seats, it drives really nice... and it was red and the boot fitted my two cabs perfectly... so I went for it.
Mine is the one with the smallest engine in the range, which suited me... I had a 1.6 Golf before, and this is a 1.4 Turbo which is slightly more powerful, with noticeably nicer acceleration, and it's a lot more fun to drive even if it's most definitely not a racing car... and all that while getting a much better MPG than my old Golf.
I don't think anybody sees my car and thinks it's highly powered. It just has nice aesthetic touches compared to the standard version. I only wish it had smaller wheels with higher profile tires and less 'sporty' suspension... although I have to admit I love the way it handles bendy A and B roads, where lots of other cars have to slow down I can just sail through.

ANYWAY... carry on... I just had to come in and defend part of what the S-Line provides. It looks pretty standard and nothing like an S3... "S-Line" just specifies a particular interior and some minor externally visible details like the wheels...
[/quote]

One thing that grinds my gears is 'Sport' models, I'd make a law that says you can't call it a sport unless it is used somewhere in a sport, a Citroen Picasso sport? Hhmm which bit is sporting? Ah rant over.

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1491982987' post='3276866']
Yep, gear snobbery, not necessarily from the owner.
[/quote]

Exactly what happened to me last Saturday. I regularly gig with a Vintage (the JHS brand) P-bass. It plays beautifully, looks good and sounds great in the mix. At Saturday's gig, an audience member, who has previously told me that he owns US Fender guitars, asked, "You've got a different bass haven't you? (I was playing an Ibanez the last time we played there) What is it, a Fender?" I answered, "No, it's a Vintage, the JHS brand, Vintage", to which he replied, "Oh". End of conversation

Edited May 19, 2017 by MoJo

[stingrayPete1977]

It's not just the bedroom hero dentist in his 50s types that turn their noses up though either, I had some young lads (20s) in a band laughing at my 'Stingray copy' years ago huddled around in the back stage dressing room, I didn't bother engaging them but I knew what they were saying regards the missing features of a genuine EBMM, the look on their faces was brilliant when an older mate of theirs came back stage and spotted it "wow is that a real pre EB Stingray, can I look at it?" , "yes it is and of course have a go if you like" I knew of the guy a bit and knew he was alright and a bassist! He went on to bore them about how good a bass it is for ages after, it is too Foxx of this parish has it now I think?

Edited May 19, 2017 by stingrayPete1977

[Yukimajou]

I may be in a minority here, but if I was gigging a Fender bass, I'd be tempted to put a Squier decal on it. It's less of a target for getting nicked. Or maybe I'm letting my Portsmouth upbringing show.

[mcnach]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1495194293' post='3302034']
One thing that grinds my gears is 'Sport' models, I'd make a law that says you can't call it a sport unless it is used somewhere in a sport, a Citroen Picasso sport? Hhmm which bit is sporting? Ah rant over.
[/quote]

Well, if it's got a big noisy muffler...

[Rich]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1495140112' post='3301648']
As for fraud, of course it is a major reason for people to use a fake decal. It's the first step anyone would take in trying to pass something off. I don't think 12StringBassist was lightly throwing accusations around, just stating the obvious, which, in turn, has elicited a very strange response from a moderator.
[/quote]
What is 'strange' about it, and what has my being a mod got to do with it? I put a decal on my bitsa. However, I am neither a snob nor a fraudster. Are you suggesting otherwise?

[TrevorR]

And this is the big problem with this sort of debate generic statements bump up against specific examples - where both are to some or other degree valid.

I do get the "It's brand snobbery" camp and I think that it is a valid presumption. I've not done a statistical analysis of course... But I'd reckon that for every one person who adds a decal to their bitsa for aesthetic reasons (as Rich put it, "to complete the look") but would be happy to respond to a question about its origin by saying "[i]Actually, no it's not a Fender! I made it myself from bits as a personalised custom version...[/i]" there will be maybe five or more whose motive will be so that people think they're playing a more expensive name bass.

I like the car analogy - for me I'd go with buying a Toyota (or a no-name modern style car from India or Indonesia or somewhere) and sticking a Lexus badge on.

If the latter, deceptive reason is the motive I personally think that's a bit sad. If it's the former aesthetic reason then that's a personal choice but I suspect that someone doing that can expect that some may occasionally presume the motive is deception/delusion no matter how convincing an argument they state. Just human nature really.

As to Limelight's old ploy of offering a Fender logo on the front and "Limelight" written in marker pen on the back of the headstock it always struck me as bad form, a bit distasteful and a bit sad. It's not exactly "passing off" because they did have the truth on the back sealed by varnish but it's edging in that direction. Especially for a commercial company selling to the (mostly private) retail market. If they were making a replica "[i]bass which must not be named[/i]" rather than replica Fenders then m'learned friends would rapidly become involved, marker pen on the back of the headstock or not.

Personally, I'm in the camp which if I bought a Limelight would NOT want to have a Fender logo and happily tell folks, "Nope it's not a Fender but it's twice the quality and half the price! Who'd buy a Fender when you can get one of these?" Same with my Signature bitsa from Buildabass on eBay.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1495228100' post='3302391']

What is 'strange' about it, and what has my being a mod got to do with it? I put a decal on my bitsa. However, I am neither a snob nor a fraudster. Are you suggesting otherwise?
[/quote]
Yes. There is an element of brand snobbery in what you have done. The strange behaviour is the lightly veiled threat talking of accusations of fraud being thrown around.

[itsmedunc]

What does it really matter to anyone anyway? What if someone chose to remove a Fender decal on a 73 Jazz and replace it with an Argos decal? I'm sure folk have done worse. Does it really matter? That would be their business, their bass and nobody else's anyway.

Perhaps, some folk feel they need to "look" like they have a "real" Fender due to feeling others belittle their "lesser" bass? Snobbery and naivity are two different things after all. As long as it's not to defraud, what's the problem?

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='mikel' timestamp='1495186157' post='3301921']
You missed one....Fashion.

My bro bought a Precision in 1981 when we were in the same band, as it was the bass to have, it was a Fender after all. It had a number of dead spots on the neck, and he was not surprisingly for a newbie, a little shocked. He was told by experienced bassists to learn how to play around them. He wished he hadnt traded in the Rick.
[/quote]

I dunno Mikel. I reckon fashion is a symptom of snobbery or snobbery a symptom of fashion. Whatever way around they are they often go hand in hand.

I bought a Squier fretless Jazz in the eighties out of brand [i]snobbery[/i] because it had the F word on it in familiar lettering. It had all the looks. Favourable comments from everyone who saw it gave me a boost and made me feel [i]fashionable[/i].

In the first week of ownership I thought I'd found a shallow depression around the 10th and 11th fret position on the D string where the notes dropped off a little. Back at the shop it was examined and found to be okay. It was a dead spot. I was told to try a new set of strings.

About that time I had discovered a problem with the guitar's massive headstock. During practice in a small bedroom belonging to the drummer I'd have trouble avoiding the doorways, walls and heads of my band mates. He had both bed and drum kit in there and we'd fit in as best we could. As we were a four piece band it was cozy to say the least and the guitar felt even more clumsy and unwieldy than usual. I went back to playing my mate's left handed guitar while I arranged to trade the Squier in for the Vantage that I still own.

In fairness there are many things that guitarists and bassists "play around" to get the desired result. Often it is an unconscious thing, particularly with time served players. Sometimes it is such a thorn in your side that it will make you reluctant to plug the instrument in at all.

Edited May 20, 2017 by SpondonBassed

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='Number6' timestamp='1492293115' post='3279299']
My Squier Frank Bello Jazz Bass has a Gotoh Hi-Mass bridge, Seymour Duncan Qtr Pounders, KiOgon Series/Parallel wiring loom and Grover machine heads. It has a very good neck on it which i have rubbed down and removed the coating to make it much smoother to play. The body is Agathis which is nice and light it also seems to be fairly resonant.

When it comes down to it i would argue this bass could hold its own against a £1000+ Fender US instrument
[/quote]

yes

i also have a squier J - an affinity series the lowest of the low apparently - similar body very light but nicely resonant - it now has a gotoh bridge and a pair of wizard hammers and a j-east preamp - disregarding the visual aesthetics and finer points of finishing, soundwise is easily comparable to a geddy lee J

i was going to vinyl the headstock with blue to match the body but i decided to leave the ugly black squier logo up there instead as the devils advocate in me likes to irritate the gear snobs out there

[Rich]

[quote name='Mykesbass' timestamp='1495236100' post='3302439']
Yes. There is an element of brand snobbery in what you have done. The strange behaviour is the lightly veiled threat talking of accusations of fraud being thrown around.
[/quote]
Right. So despite the fact that I have specifically stated my reasons for doing it, i.e. purely an aesthetic preference as Trevor said, and have also stated that I am not a snob, you have decided otherwise? Despite never having met me or my bass.
And you obviously don't know me if you think that was any sort of'threat', veiled or otherwise.

[Mykesbass]

[quote name='Rich' timestamp='1495266112' post='3302502']

Right. So despite the fact that I have specifically stated my reasons for doing it, i.e. purely an aesthetic preference as Trevor said, and have also stated that I am not a snob, you have decided otherwise? Despite never having met me or my bass.
And you obviously don't know me if you think that was any sort of'threat', veiled or otherwise.
[/quote]
I'm sorry Rich, but your first post was, at the very least, passive aggressive. Without trawling through all my posts it is not the first time, I had a very acerbic response from you quite recently.
Aesthetics, snobbery, when it comes to branding, what's the difference? If it wasn't for this companies wouldn't spend fortunes developing brand loyalty. By the way, I'm a snob too. My bitsa has F3nd3r Recession Bass on the headstock, a nod to the brand, and so it looks authentic from the distance, but with a little joke as it cost a lot less.

[Rich]

If you'd explained exactly why you'd done what you'd done to your own flippin bass and stated categorically that it was NOT snobbery, but someone had said that actually yeah it is a bit, and someone [i]else[/i] had said that the only other reason for doing it was fraud, I reckon you'd probably feel slightly miffed too.

[Skybone]

Rickenbacker TRC's on RickenFakers?

Some of it is down to brand snobbery, some of it down to wanting people to think it's something it isn't, some of it's down to "feel good" factor. Don't get it personally, but if it comes to selling stuff on, they need to be very clear about their "modification".

[mikel]

Look at it from another perspective. A newbie with well off parents. First gig. New Fender Roadworn, Barefaced rig, lots of effects pedals. Musicians in the audience expect a certain level of performance, as you would, but kid is ok at best. Opens him up to the "All the gear no idea" argument. Who cares what is written on the headstock, really? If it plays the way you like, play it, and if it sounds great to the audience they dont care either. Also other bassists will wonder how you get such a great sound out of a no name instrument, and where can they get one.

[lowdown]

Not really bothered about what's written on the headstock of my Fender Jazz look a like Bass. But, I must say, Sadowsky NYC looks just fine.