Intervals

[timmo]

If you are in key of E on the 7th fret, the major 6th will be on 6th fret. If you play the C# on the 11th fret, is it still a major 6th? I assume the C# on the 9th fret will be inverted major 6th. Would the c# on the 4th fret still be a major 6th?

[TKenrick]

If you play any E and play a C# [b]above[/b] it then you've gone up a major 6th regardless of which string or fret it's located on.

If you play any E and play the C# [b]below[/b] it then it's still the 6th degree of the E major scale and is referred to as 'the major 6th' within the key even though technically you've gone down a minor 3rd to get to it (a minor third being the interval that you get if you invert a major 6th).

It's important to differentiate between naming a note according to its function within a key and labelling individual intervals within a melody or bass line.

If you play the open E string followed by the highest C# possible on your bass then you're still playing the tonic followed by the 6th degree of the scale, the functions of those two notes remain unchanged even if the 'distance' between them on the fretboard is different.

EDIT: After writing the above I went back to practising and realised that adding the following might help...

Identifying notes by their function versus labelling the interval between them:

Let's stick with the OP's choice of E to C# (9 semitones, definitely a major 6th) and imagine that we're playing these notes against the I chord (tonic, 'home', 'key chord', however you want to label it) in each different key:

In the key of E the functions of the notes (their position in the scale) are the tonic (or root, or even just '1') and 6th.

If we change keys and move to A major (A B C# D E F# G#), E to C# is [b]still [/b]a major 6th but the E is the 5th of the scale and C# is the 3rd.

Changing keys again to D major (D E F# G A B C#), E to C# is [b]still[/b] a major 6th, now the E is the 2nd and C# is the 7th

The same interval viewed in different harmonic contexts will have a different function, but the distance between the notes remains the same.


Apologies if any of this is unbearably patronising, but I wanted to provide the most complete answer possible.

Articulating this in writing is a bit like trying to give swimming lessons over the phone, but hopefully this clarifies things rather than adding to the confusion!

Edited April 12, 2017 by TKenrick

[Steve Woodcock]

The term [i]interval[/i] describes [b]the distance between two notes[/b], whether played in succession (a [i]melodic[/i] interval) or simultaneously (a [i]harmonic[/i] interval).

The distance between the note E and the C# [u]above[/u], if played within the octave, will always be major 6th [u]regardless of what key it is in[/u]. If the distance is over an octave it is known as a [i]compound[/i] interval - your example of E to C# would be a major 13th.

Here is a diagram showing [i]simple[/i] (occurring within the space of an octave) and compound intervals. To find the simple equivalent of a compound interval, subtract 7 from its number (i.e. 13 - 7 = 6):

[attachment=242865:Simple and Compound Intervals.png]


In your example of E to C#, if you lower the C# by an octave so it is below the E you have [i]inverted[/i] the interval and it becomes a minor 3rd (note that intervals are named from the bottom note up).

[attachment=242866:Inversions.png]

As you can see in the diagram above the original interval and its inversion always add up to 9:

2 + 7 = 9
3 + 6 = 9
4 + 5 = 9
6 + 3 = 9
7 + 2 = 9
8 + 1 = 9

Perfect intervals remain perfect but minor becomes major, major becomes minor, augmented becomes diminished and diminished becomes augmented.

[timmo]

Am I getting diatonic intervals and chromatic intervals mixed up?

[Steve Woodcock]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1491994275' post='3276998']
Am I getting diatonic intervals and chromatic intervals mixed up?
[/quote]

An example of a [i]chromatic[/i] interval would be [b]C[/b] to [b]C#[/b] as this does not occur within any key, whereas [b]C[/b] to [b]Db[/b] (the [i]enharmonic equivalent[/i] of C#) would be a [i]diatonic[/i] interval as this occurs naturally in a number of keys.

[markstuk]

[quote name='Steve Woodcock' timestamp='1491996490' post='3277022']


An example of a [i]chromatic[/i] interval would be [b]C[/b] to [b]C#[/b] as this does not occur within any key, whereas [b]C[/b] to [b]Db[/b] (the [i]enharmonic equivalent[/i] of C#) would be a [i]diatonic[/i] interval as this occurs naturally in a number of keys.
[/quote]

Although C to Db does :-) oops just read the rest of your post 🤡

I think the difficult thing here is that on most instruments c# and db are the same note

Edited April 12, 2017 by markstuk

[markstuk]

I really recommend reading this book - not only is it great on psychoacoustics it's a very lucid theory primer.. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/0099535440/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=M0XQQKCN3EADD2PFSE9H&dpPl=1&dpID=41f-piy4QvL

[Steve Woodcock]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1491999561' post='3277043']
c# and db are the same note
[/quote]

Yes, they are the same but for diatonic notes whether you name it a C# or a Db depends on the key:

A key consists of [b]7 pitches [/b]- the other 5 notes that exist within an octave are non-diatonic notes; a key will contain an A [i]of some kind [/i](be it flat, sharp or natural), a B [i]of some kind[/i], a C [i]of some kind[/i], a D [i]of some kind[/i], an E [i]of some kind[/i], an F [i]of some kind[/i], and a G [i]of some kind. [/i]Therefore, if your key already contains a C then the adjacent note will be a D of some kind.

[markstuk]

[quote name='Steve Woodcock' timestamp='1492007837' post='3277140']
Yes, they are the same but for diatonic notes whether you name it a C# or a Db depends on the key:

A key consists of [b]7 pitches [/b]- the other 5 notes that exist within an octave are non-diatonic notes; a key will contain an A [i]of some kind [/i](be it flat, sharp or natural), a B [i]of some kind[/i], a C [i]of some kind[/i], a D [i]of some kind[/i], an E [i]of some kind[/i], an F [i]of some kind[/i], and a G [i]of some kind. [/i]Therefore, if your key already contains a C then the adjacent note will be a D of some kind.
[/quote]

Sure, the context of the key defines whether it's a flat or sharp, regardless of whether they're the same note on a keyboard. I was suggesting that this concept is actually quite hard to grasp... My piano teacher got bored of me saying - "but it's the same note"

[Steve Woodcock]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1492008032' post='3277144']
Sure, the context of the key defines whether it's a flat or sharp, regardless of whether they're the same note on a keyboard. I was suggesting that this concept is actually quite hard to grasp... My piano teacher got bored of me saying - "but it's the same note"
[/quote]

Haha! Yes, it can be a difficult concept to understand at first but, as with so many other aspects of music theory, there is a very logical reason for it and it does make the communication of ideas much simpler.

[TKenrick]

[quote name='markstuk' timestamp='1492008032' post='3277144']
My piano teacher got bored of me saying - "but it's the same note"
[/quote]

That implies that your piano teacher's explanation of this was [i]sub-par[/i] to say the least...

[markstuk]

[quote name='TKenrick' timestamp='1492010346' post='3277173']
That implies that your piano teacher's explanation of this was [i]sub-par[/i] to say the least...
[/quote]

I was only nine at the time..

[krispn]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1491994275' post='3276998']
Am I getting diatonic intervals and chromatic intervals mixed up?
[/quote]

Chromatic intervals are moving up by a minor second each time, a minor 2nd being a semi tone above the original note or as we 'fretted' instrument players see it one fret. So a C chromatic scale would read C-C#-D-D#-E-F....all the way back up to C one fret at a time.

A diatonic scale contains two half-step intervals, and the rest are whole-step intervals. So a C Diatonic scale would read C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C with the two half steps occurring between E-F and B-C. Although this is a C major scale 'diatonic' does not always mean a major scale.

Theres probably a lot more to it but at my basic level of understanding music theory this is how I learned it.

[Bilbo]

Put simply, notes are not defined necessarily by their individual location or specific sound but by their context. A flat fifth is not a sharpened fourth even if they are both an F#. It is the notes AROUND the note that tell you what to call it.

[timmo]

I am aware of flats and sharps and how they work, it was more a question of semantics really.
If I was to say to someone play an E, major 6th, the obvious way is 7th fret, 6th fret (Assuming the root is on the 7th fret). If I wanted you to play E , 7th fret and C# 9th fret, how would I express that as in intervals? Am I just confusing myself and the issue ?

[Steve Woodcock]

[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1492075547' post='3277647']
If I wanted you to play E , 7th fret and C# 9th fret, how would I express that as in intervals? Am I just confusing myself and the issue ?
[/quote]

You would say 'play a [b]minor 3rd below' [/b]as intervals are named from the bottom note up (C# to E = minor 3rd). See the second diagram in my first post as this shows intervals and their inversions.

[jrixn1]

What is the context of the question?

Perhaps intervals are not the best way to communicate what's going on?

Given this question:
[quote name='timmo' timestamp='1492075547' post='3277647']
If I wanted you to play E , 7th fret and C# 9th fret, how would I express that as in intervals?
[/quote]

I would say either "go down to C#" or "down to the 6" (I've assumed that the first note played, E, was the root; or, in other words, that your song is in the key of E).

I wouldn't use absolute intervals between one note and the next. Instead, I would describe each note using its relation to the root.

Let's suppose the third note of your sequence was F#. I would then say "go up to the 2". (F# being the 2nd note of the scale in the key of E.)

I wouldn't say "play a perfect fourth above" even though F# is indeed a perfect fourth above C#.

[The Jaywalker]

.

Edited November 28, 2017 by The Jaywalker

[timmo]

Thanks for all the input. I have had a good play about last night, and have a better understanding. I had seen a tutorial, about intervals, playing Major 3rds. He started off, on G 5th fret, then went to the major 3rd to play the interval, then kept going all over the neck playing just root and 3rds, and it just confused me at the time

[Norris]

If you are going from an E to the C# below you are dropping 3 semitones, which is an interval of a minor third. However the note you end up on is the 6th of the scale.