thebrig Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 (edited) [font=Helvetica]As the title says, am I wrong in wanting to learn the set/songs properly?[/font] [font=Helvetica]Nearly every band that I’ve been in, we decide on a setlist, or we agree to learn three or four new songs for the following week and I go away and learn them properly, but everyone else just brushes over the surface of the songs, and I end up having to tell them they are playing them wrong, which I hate doing because it obviously annoys them.[/font] [font=Helvetica]My current band is not a band that’s puts our own take on songs, we are a band that plays the songs as per the original, because being a covers band, we feel the punters prefer them that way.[/font] [font=Helvetica]I download the originals and put them in a Dropbox folder so everyone can work from the same versions, but when we get to the rehearsal room, they are all over the place with them, they seem happy to settle for mediocracy, and just say, “it’ll be alright on the night” which I hate, because I think it’s just laziness on their part, especially as they are all very good musicians.[/font] [font=Helvetica]I am an average but very steady bass player, I work hard on the songs, I make sure I know the structures perfectly, I've played with three of them for a couple of years in other bands, and although it annoys them when I pull them up in rehearsals, they are perfectly happy to rely on me to guide them through the songs when we are playing live.[/font] [font=Helvetica]To put you in the picture, my current band started in December, we decided on a setlist of thirty songs, and by the end of January I had lean’t them all, and can honestly say that I am ready to gig them, but we are now in April and collectively, we only have about fifteen that are ready, and I’m getting more and more frustrated having to pay for rehearsals just to go over the same old songs week in, week out, just because the others aren’t bothering to put in the work.[/font] [font=Helvetica]Is it me, am I too demanding, am I being unreasonable to expect them to want to get their fingers out and learn the songs so we can get out there gigging?[/font] [font=Helvetica]Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy rehearsing, but surely rehearsals are for piecing the songs together, and I’m now at the point of making a big decision on whether I stay and probably carry on rehearsing songs I already know well for another six months or so, or do I look for a ready made band in need of a bass player who already know their set?[/font] [font=Helvetica]BTW, these guys are all really nice people, but I’m just so frustrated with the attitude. [/font] Edited April 13, 2017 by thebrig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 An army marches to the speed of it`s slowest recruit - in your case that`s the rest of the band. You`ll inevitably have more professional/dedicated members in bands, in your case it`s you. Every band/sporting team/political party needs it`s steering member/driving force, you`re already that with regards to the rehearsing, getting them gigging may be the kick up the backside they need to actually pull together. Book a few gigs and put the pressure on, I reckon you`ll get where you need to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 soudns to me like youre carrying them. All of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightsun Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 As Above, there is nothing like the thought of looming gigs to create some motivation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='Lozz196' timestamp='1492077166' post='3277684'] An army marches to the speed of it`s slowest recruit - in your case that`s the rest of the band. You`ll inevitably have more professional/dedicated members in bands, in your case it`s you. Every band/sporting team/political party needs it`s steering member/driving force, you`re already that with regards to the rehearsing, getting them gigging may be the kick up the backside they need to actually pull together. Book a few gigs and put the pressure on, I reckon you`ll get where you need to be. [/quote]Booking gigs? that's the other thing that frustrates me Lozz, with the three members I've played with over the past couple of years, it's always been left to me to get the gigs, even though every week I ask the other members to put some footwork in as well, and of course, they always say they will, but never do, and to really rub salt into the wound, one of them moaned that all the gigs seem to be in and around my area! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 you'll always get this, our drummer not very good at brushing up on songs, I take my MP3 player to rehearsals and we play the song, to be fair he's very quick at getting it right, another one is the guitarist says we don't have to be just like the original song than last night pulled me up because I missed a fill out of Suspect Device! hey band politics, everybody has short comings some peoples you can put up with some you can't, you have to decide, but if Martin McGuiness and Ian Pasley could learn to get on there's hope for us all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 This is the problem I've always found with learning covers. Everybody always has their own idea about what constitutes having "learned" a song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Its so common with bands. My lot should know better but don't always deliver. The ability is there but attitudes vary. Not enough real competition around means there is no real threat of becoming bandless if you don't step it up. From what you say the obvious thing to me is...they haven't learnt the material. Its as simple as that. If I get "oh yes I have learnt it" when what that really means is "I've played along with a youtube vid and it was ok then", I ask them to play the tune start to finish on their own. If there are sections in the tune where they dont play they should be able to tap their foot and come back in where appropriate. If they cant do that, they haven't learnt the tune. Full stop. These guys are wasting your time band wise. Look for another band but keep going along with them for now rather than have no playing in a band experience , even if its just rehearsing the same old. Keeps your hand in. Concentrate on getting the tone you like. Let them do all the legwork. They organise the rehearsals and whats being done in them. Enjoy the laughs and keep on good terms so that when you do leave its not under a dark cloud. If they were serious about it they would be like you. They are not and it wont change so you're just winding your self up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhysP Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='PaulWarning' timestamp='1492077725' post='3277693'] ....but if Martin McGuiness and Ian Pasley could learn to get on there's hope for us all [/quote] They were never in a band together... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I suspect it may be you then if it 'happens in nearly every band' you're in. The problem with learning songs 'exactly as per the original' is that music just doesn't work that way. Many original artists don't even play the songs as per the original recording when they play live. I suspect what most of your fellow musicians (and certainly what we do) are learning the form and key riffs and parts on their own and then seeing what has to be adjusted within the arrangement to make the song work as close to the original as you find acceptable. If you start being over critical on individual parts, even if you slavishly learn your part note for note from the record, it just won't work. The other problem with learning songs note for note is the amount of time and dedication needed to do that when you turn up to the next rehearsal and find the song doesn't fit the band, you've wasted a lot of time and the band members will then get bogged down, and waste even more time, forcing it to work because they don't want to see all that wasted time lost. Learn the structure and key parts, relax and have fun. Just don't cut out mid sections because 'they're too hard' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len_derby Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 No you're not wrong. And, in some ways, neither are they. They have different levels of commitment/motivation/expectation to you. My experience is that it's very hard to change this. It causes bad blood. Your choices are to grit your teeth and stay or find a band of more like-minded people. I was in a similar situation and walked. It took 18 months to find the right band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goingdownslow Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='bassjim' timestamp='1492077906' post='3277697'] I ask them to play the tune start to finish on their own. If there are sections in the tune where they dont play they should be able to tap their foot and come back in where appropriate. If they cant do that, they haven't learnt the tune. Full stop. [/quote] What would be their punishment, Sir, 40 lashes with a 105 roundwound or write out the tab 100 times? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime_BASS Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 Kill them, leave them behind. You can be better, stronger; faster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492078216' post='3277701'] I suspect it may be you then if it 'happens in nearly every band' you're in. The problem with learning songs 'exactly as per the original' is that music just doesn't work that way. Many original artists don't even play the songs as per the original recording when they play live. I suspect what most of your fellow musicians (and certainly what we do) are learning the form and key riffs and parts on their own and then seeing what has to be adjusted within the arrangement to make the song work as close to the original as you find acceptable. If you start being over critical on individual parts, even if you slavishly learn your part note for note from the record, it just won't work. The other problem with learning songs note for note is the amount of time and dedication needed to do that when you turn up to the next rehearsal and find the song doesn't fit the band, you've wasted a lot of time and the band members will then get bogged down, and waste even more time, forcing it to work because they don't want to see all that wasted time lost. Learn the structure and key parts, relax and have fun. Just don't cut out mid sections because 'they're too hard' [/quote]We've all agreed to use the originals as a guide to the structures of the song, each individual part doesn't necessarily have to be note for note, but sometimes someone goes into the chorus where they shouldn't, or the singer comes in over the second part of the solo, or the drummer finishes the song far too early and makes you look daft because you've just gone into the next note. Surely you have to have some sort of structured way of workig if you are going to put on a tight and professional show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1492079566' post='3277719'] IMHO you get good at what you practice. If you've agreed that the chosen versions are what you're aiming for, then 95% of the work should be done before you pay for a room. I've been in exactly this situation more than a few times and know others that currently are and nothing good comes of it unless the mindset changes. Every gig I play I expect the whole band to aim for perfection. I know that won't happen, but that is where what we're aiming at. If you set your sights at 70% to start off with, you know what you'll end up with. [/quote]Totally agree with you, if we are putting on a show where we are being paid, then I feel we should all strive to get the the songs 100% correct, of course there are going to be a few cock-ups, that's inevitable, but aim for 100%, and if you achieve 90/95% then great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1492077991' post='3277699'] They were never in a band together... [/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurhenry Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492078216' post='3277701'] I suspect it may be you then if it 'happens in nearly every band' you're in. The problem with learning songs 'exactly as per the original' is that music just doesn't work that way. Many original artists don't even play the songs as per the original recording when they play live. I suspect what most of your fellow musicians (and certainly what we do) are learning the form and key riffs and parts on their own and then seeing what has to be adjusted within the arrangement to make the song work as close to the original as you find acceptable. If you start being over critical on individual parts, even if you slavishly learn your part note for note from the record, it just won't work. The other problem with learning songs note for note is the amount of time and dedication needed to do that when you turn up to the next rehearsal and find the song doesn't fit the band, you've wasted a lot of time and the band members will then get bogged down, and waste even more time, forcing it to work because they don't want to see all that wasted time lost. Learn the structure and key parts, relax and have fun. Just don't cut out mid sections because 'they're too hard' [/quote] There is huge value in learning songs note for note for any musician. Even if the band decides that a particular song won't work after you've all learnt it, you will still have gained something as a musician by going through that learning process and even by recognising that it won't work for your band. Imagine if every band member put the work in and learnt and practised songs until they knew them inside out. Then they came together and played them. Why does that seem like a fantasy?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoRhino Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I rehearsed in a band for weeks on end run by an ego maniac. Bass and drum parts needed to be exactly as per the original. When I asked why it was ok for him to improvise a solo he swore at me. Make sure you're not like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthedoghouse Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 I think you're totally right wanting to learn the songs as you say. I have always done my homework regardless of how long it takes or how frustrating certain parts might prove to be, and so been 100% ready with the agreed songs for the next rehearsal. And between gigs I've always brushed up on parts I think I could play better or that I know I might forget the arrangement of. The last band I was in all worked the same way so we were lucky in that respect that nobody was waiting for anybody else to get up to speed. But like many people here have probably experienced I've been in bands where one or more of the other members have clearly done little or nothing at home and use the valuable rehearal time learning - very frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthedoghouse Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1492081406' post='3277748'] There is huge value in learning songs note for note for any musician. Even if the band decides that a particular song won't work after you've all learnt it, you will still have gained something as a musician by going through that learning process and even by recognising that it won't work for your band. Imagine if every band member put the work in and learnt and practised songs until they knew them inside out. Then they came together and played them. Why does that seem like a fantasy?! [/quote]Absolutely! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inthedoghouse Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1492077991' post='3277699'] They were never in a band together... [/quote]I actually did lol to that one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492079147' post='3277715'] We've all agreed to use the originals as a guide to the structures of the song, each individual part doesn't necessarily have to be note for note, but sometimes someone goes into the chorus where they shouldn't, or the singer comes in over the second part of the solo, or the drummer finishes the song far too early and makes you look daft because you've just gone into the next note. Surely you have to have some sort of structured way of workig if you are going to put on a tight and professional show. [/quote] That's slightly different to the impression you have in your OP. People make mistakes, when you learn a song to a recording you have a lot of imperceptible guides to pick up on that are always there. The singer on the recording may have some inflection in the vocal or the drummer might play a certain fill in a slightly different way. When you practice as a band, those indications are not here. It always takes a few run throughs to learn what bits are missing or added in. That's the nature of the beast. Relax a bit more. Mistakes are normal. If they're blaming you for derailing a song, or you're blaming someone else for derailing a song; that s a really bad place to be in a band situation. Laugh it off. Pick it up from where you went wrong. If the same mistakes happen time after time, then listen to the original and see why you're messing up. It's unusual to be just because someone has made a mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted April 13, 2017 Author Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='NoRhino' timestamp='1492082824' post='3277768'] I rehearsed in a band for weeks on end run by an ego maniac. Bass and drum parts needed to be exactly as per the original. When I asked why it was ok for him to improvise a solo he swore at me. Make sure you're not like that. [/quote]Trust me, as I said in my OP, I am an average but very steady bass player, I do learn the parts more or less note for note, but I don't insist that the others do, all I'm asking is that they learn the song structures correctly so that we all play the same parts in the right places, if they want to improvise a bit, no problem, as long as the overall structure of the song is correct. As a band, we did ALL agree to this way of learning and doing things, so when it doesn't happen, I get frustrated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='arthurhenry' timestamp='1492081406' post='3277748'] There is huge value in learning songs note for note for any musician. Even if the band decides that a particular song won't work after you've all learnt it, you will still have gained something as a musician by going through that learning process and even by recognising that it won't work for your band. Imagine if every band member put the work in and learnt and practised songs until they knew them inside out. Then they came together and played them. Why does that seem like a fantasy?! [/quote] Because it's a waste of time as unless your instrumentation is exactly as per the original line up and you have some way of adding all those overdubs and bits added in production the song just won't work. If you want to learn a bass line as an exercise or so that you can play along to a track at home then I agree. If you're trying to get 30 songs together to start a band, then it's going to be a very tortuous experience. Anyway, it seems the OP isn't learning songs note for note, it's the errors where people don't appear to have fully nailed the form, that are frustrating him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interpol52 Posted April 13, 2017 Share Posted April 13, 2017 [quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1492077991' post='3277699'] They were never in a band together... [/quote] A RhysP gem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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