Am I wrong in wanting to learn the set/songs properly?

[thebrig]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492083908' post='3277784']
That's slightly different to the impression you have in your OP.

People make mistakes, when you learn a song to a recording you have a lot of imperceptible guides to pick up on that are always there.

The singer on the recording may have some inflection in the vocal or the drummer might play a certain fill in a slightly different way.

When you practice as a band, those indications are not here. It always takes a few run throughs to learn what bits are missing or added in. That's the nature of the beast.

Relax a bit more. Mistakes are normal. If they're blaming you for derailing a song, or you're blaming someone else for derailing a song; that s a really bad place to be in a band situation.

Laugh it off. Pick it up from where you went wrong. If the same mistakes happen time after time, then listen to the original and see why you're messing up. It's unusual to be just because someone has made a mistake.
[/quote]I hear what you are saying Tim, and ordinarily would agree with what you are saying about laughing it off, and it's something I used to do, but after nearly two years of playing with guys who are good musicians but are still making the same mistakes, or forgetting how a song goes on numbers they have played loads of times live and in rehearsals, then surely you can understand my frustration of going along to a rehearsal to go over these songs yet again, and sometimes even having to play the song on someones phone to remind them how they go.

I am an easy going guy, and certainly don't want to fall out with people, but if I do something, I want to do it properly and to the best of my ability.

[bassjim]

[quote name='goingdownslow' timestamp='1492078897' post='3277711']
What would be their punishment, Sir, 40 lashes with a 105 roundwound or write out the tab 100 times?
[/quote] That's a good idea. I've made a note. Might work better than the usual glare from me.
Seriously though it solves any argument with my lot. I just say "have you or haven't you learnt it?" if not, after the punishment, we move to the next tune. I just say " right, no point wasting time, we'll come back to that one".

I'm very much a lets get it right kinda guy. I also welcome any improvised and personal approaches as usually they sound way better than trying to cop another persons playing exactly note for note but how ever you look at it, you know the song or you dont.

The band know I'm like that and even though it gets on their nerves at times they also know I'm right. If they cant handle me stating the obvious, they can tell me to piss off and get another player. Wont have changed anything regarding material not learnt by the individual or their attitude to not learning it.

[TimR]

Are the songs tight at gigs?

If there's no reason to practice then practicing for the sake of practicing will lead to this kind of thing.

No one really concentrates as they know the songs.

If the songs aren't right at gigs then you only need to call a practice to work on the songs that are crashing and dissect them and fix where they are failing.

I'm a bit confused, is the band a start up or has it been gigging for years?

.

Edited April 13, 2017 by TimR

[thebrig]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492085119' post='3277807']
Are the songs tight at gigs?

If there's no reason to practice then practicing for the sake of practicing will lead to this kind of thing.

No one really concentrates as they know the songs.

If the songs aren't right at gigs then you only need to call a practice to work on the songs that are crashing and dissect them and fix where they are failing.

I'm a bit confused, is the band a start up or has it been gigging for years?

.
[/quote]It's a new band in as much as myself, the guitarist and singer played together in two previous bands, but we decided to take a new direction, so we brought in a new drummer and 2nd guitarist, we now play a lot of new songs, but there are a number of songs we had played in the previous bands, which the singer in particular is always messing up, and it is mainly because he doesn't refresh them from time to time at home, and he also made lots of errors in the past when doing them live for the same reason.

You might think, why don't you find a new singer, but good singers are hard to find, and he really is good when he is at the top of his game, but he is very inconsistent due to his lack of effort.

[TimR]

I'd rehearse the set list over a couple of practices and record them. Then go home and identify any dodgy ones and create a songs to revisit list. (Or just put a cross on a list when you play a song that needs work as you play them) Then spend a few weeks just going over those ones.

Might give everyone a bit of focus and renew the direction.

[tony_m]

Similar sort of issue here, inasmuch as I learn the notes [i]and[/i] the arrangements, while Mr Guitar and Mr Keys tend to jam things out as they go along. On the plus side, my ability to listen to and follow them when they do deviate from "my" arrangement is definitely improving, so not altogether a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

[dmccombe7]

With our band myself and the drummer both write down everything about the song for our parts. Before i learn a suggested song i specifically ask what version as i've been caught out before with key changes on the spot which i just don't appreciate.
I literally write out the bass part and the structure of the song.
Drummer learns his part and writes out the structure and keeps a note of the tempo.

Vocalist tends to suggest the songs which i'm in favour off as he then knows what he can sing. He generally knows the song but keeps a copy of all lyrics he uses.
One guitarist has a basic listen to a song and then learns it at rehearsal unless he already knows the song.
Main guitarist usually learns his bit well but doesn't always get the structure right.
Keyboard player tends to learn basics at home and polishes off at rehearsal.

They now rely on me for making sure we have the exact structure of the song as played by the artist and from there we will re-arrange parts to suit our style of playing and how we want to start, play, solos or end a song.
Once we agree how we will play we will run through it to make sure it sounds good and then I'll write out the new structure and we rehearse to that version every time.

It can be frustrating when others suggest a song and when you turn up for rehearsal you are the only one that knows your part correctly but that's bandmates for you.

I don't get invoved in arranging the gigs. Mostly the 2 guitarists that do that.

With regards song selection its down to mostly singer making a suggestion and we have a listen to it before we finally agree to learn it. Occasionally we've tried a song and it just doesn't suit our style so we drop it. That's now quite rare as we have a better feel for what suits us and what we are capable of covering.

Dave

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492086603' post='3277826']
I'd rehearse the set list over a couple of practices and record them. Then go home and identify any dodgy ones and create a songs to revisit list. (Or just put a cross on a list when you play a song that needs work as you play them) Then spend a few weeks just going over those ones.

Might give everyone a bit of focus and renew the direction.
[/quote]

Good ideas, but you seem to take it as read that TheBrig is the band's MD and call the shots at rehearsals.

Just saying ...

[scalpy]

It's a real tough one if you're getting paid. If the client has splashed out £600 for a gig say, they won't see it as the guitarist started Uptown Funk in C# minor, 'I'll dock him a tenner', the client thinks 'This band cost me months of saving for this party and they sound shi*' And the guitarist can't go 'I'm only getting £75 for this, I've been here all day and my kit cost thousands' the client's forked out £600 and wants value, and quite rightly.

[TimR]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1492089490' post='3277860']


Good ideas, but you seem to take it as read that TheBrig is the band's MD and call the shots at rehearsals.

Just saying ...
[/quote]

We have a band leader who makes major descisions but surely it's up to individuals to flag anything they're not comfortable with and want to work on in practices? Otherwise how does the MD know what the band needs to work on?

[bassjim]

[quote name='scalpy' timestamp='1492090390' post='3277868']
It's a real tough one if you're getting paid. If the client has splashed out £600 for a gig say, they won't see it as the guitarist started Uptown Funk in C# minor, 'I'll dock him a tenner', the client thinks 'This band cost me months of saving for this party and they sound shi*' And the guitarist can't go 'I'm only getting £75 for this, I've been here all day and my kit cost thousands' the client's forked out £600 and wants value, and quite rightly.
[/quote] + 1

[bassjim]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492092208' post='3277889']
We have a band leader who makes major descisions but surely it's up to individuals to flag anything they're not comfortable with and want to work on in practices? Otherwise how does the MD know what the band needs to work on?
[/quote]
It should be but this could also be an admission of guilt. As the MD of sorts in my band, I have a problem with an attitude from one of my band members that likes to say hes done this tune or that tune in previous bands so now doesn't need to go over it. Or claims he knows it but actually doesn't half as well as he has convinced himself he does. Would probably see it as a weakness to admit he's not on top of it. Same guy gets bored going over and over things for the benifit of others even though its probably doing him a lot of good.
Some people think that spending more than half an hour on a tune on their own is more than enough effort vrs the pay off. I spend as long as it takes till I know I've got it down. You only get out what you put in. I think I'm just more into it.
My solution for turning up without parts learnt already above in the thread.

[TimR]

That's a bit deep. I just turn up and play music.

[bassjim]

Think I was trying to say in there somewhere that some people wont turn up and say
" i haven't got that tune down very well. I'm struggling on the chours part. I could do with going over it for an hour or so because I need to see how my part fits in in the context of playing it in a band rather than as a play along to a youtube vid" .

Reason is because they are admitting to not having learnt it. Its like they hope no one will bring it up and then its not going to be an issue. I think like you, and probably the OP, I just want to turn up and play music, but its those that cant even get the arrangment right that stop that process happening, therefore causing friction which leads on to " its not fun for me because..." rubbish.

This ranting applies to a situation where people are not jamming to write new material

[phil.c60]

All of the above. I learn songs pretty thoroughly before rehearsals so that I've got the structure nailed down, even if I can't get all the frilly bits. The others do the same working from an agreed version or youtube clip. If we then decide to change things, ie add a harp solo or extend a guitar solo, at least we're all starting fro the same point otherwise it's just chaos and a lot of wasted time. As for ends - if a song ends with a fade we're never going to do that, so we sort that part out after the first run through the main parts. We record the rehearsals, I edit them and send mp3s so that we've all got the final version with the structure and end we want for the next rehearsal or gig. Works well for us. Drummer does sometimes make notes and bring them, but I just learn it. Saves me needing a music stand at a gig.

[thebrig]

[quote name='phil.c60' timestamp='1492102842' post='3278013']
All of the above. I learn songs pretty thoroughly before rehearsals so that I've got the structure nailed down, even if I can't get all the frilly bits. The others do the same working from an agreed version or youtube clip. If we then decide to change things, ie add a harp solo or extend a guitar solo, at least we're all starting fro the same point otherwise it's just chaos and a lot of wasted time. As for ends - if a song ends with a fade we're never going to do that, so we sort that part out after the first run through the main parts. We record the rehearsals, I edit them and send mp3s so that we've all got the final version with the structure and end we want for the next rehearsal or gig. Works well for us. Drummer does sometimes make notes and bring them, but I just learn it. Saves me needing a music stand at a gig.
[/quote]Perfect, that's exactly what I'm after, I record every session so that I know how we have arranged a song, just so that next week when we run through it again, everything will be fine, but....

[dmccombe7]

I recorded an originals song by the guitarist mainly to allow me to put a better bass line to it rather than waste rehearsal time.
When we returned the next rehearsal i had produced a new bass line and knew the song structure.
Oddly enough the guitarist debated the structure of the song and when i played it back he had gotten it wrong. However we did change it because it sounded better

Bands are such fun.

Dave

[RhysP]

[quote name='interpol52' timestamp='1492084580' post='3277794']
A RhysP gem!
[/quote]

Aw shucks...

[lojo]

My main band come to sessions knowing structures and thier parts, I couldn't have it any other way.

[blue]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492076764' post='3277674']
[font=Helvetica]

[font=Helvetica]Nearly every band that I’

[font=Helvetica]My current band is not a band that’s puts our own take on songs, we are a band that plays the songs as per the original, because being a covers band, we feel the punters prefer them that way.[/font][/quote]

I have a slightly different take The Brig, if I understand your situation correctly.

If the band members haven't learned the 30 songs since January, your really not a band that plays the songs per the original recording. Your a band that hasn't learned half of the songs at all

I think this is a "red flag". Especially if the reason you joined the band was to gig.

I would have preferred to see you in an established cover band bringing your work ethic in to learn the songs of a cover band already up and running.

Blue

[steve-bbb]

depends how you want the songs to come across to your audience

perfect note for note facsimile copies with all the correct tonal characteristics and effects all the way down to 'loose' covers

while the former is often seen by some as a bit OCD and OTT (usually out of some primary concern of putting effort into it but not wasting too much time because its 'our interpretation innit') , the latter frequently comes across as lazy and unmotivated (unless of course they are very radical reworkings that have clearly had some thought and effort put into them)

hope this helps

[TimR]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1492159321' post='3278314']
depends how you want the songs to come across to your audience

perfect note for note facsimile copies with all the correct tonal characteristics and effects all the way down to 'loose' covers

while the former is often seen by some as a bit OCD and OTT (usually out of some primary concern of putting effort into it but not wasting too much time because its 'our interpretation innit') , the latter frequently comes across as lazy and unmotivated (unless of course they are very radical reworkings that have clearly had some thought and effort put into them)

hope this helps
[/quote]



It's the internet isn't it.

Can only be one or the other.

You need to re-arrange all songs to fit the instrumentation of the band. Unless you have a singer doing impressions. Which seems an odd thing to do. Where does it end. Different wigs and glasses for each song?

Edited April 14, 2017 by TimR

[JohnR]

Let's consult the Oracle that is the magnificent Alan Gorrie. Case closed.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcUjwbgK5uI[/media]

[TimR]

So how do you play a Beatles track if you don't have a piano or a second guitarist or a brass and string section?

[jazzyvee]

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