Am I wrong in wanting to learn the set/songs properly?

[markstuk]

No, you're right..

[thebrig]

I really appreciate all your replies and thoughts everyone, although it does seem that some of you may have got the impression that we play every song note for note, and that we are are trying to replicate the song [u]exactly[/u] and maybe that is my fault as I did say in my OP "[color=#282828][font=Helvetica][i]we are a band that plays the songs as per the original[/i]", I didn't mean that we cover every single instrument in the song, ie, if there is piano in the song and we haven't got one, then [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=Helvetica]obviously we can't replicate the piano[/font][/color][color=#282828][font=Helvetica], maybe I should have said "[i]we try to play the songs as close to the originals as possible[/i]", [/font][/color]

[color=#282828][font=Helvetica]So i[/font][/color]f I can just clarify, we are a band that's plays the local circuit which is mostly pubs, and we all agreed that we will learn the songs form the original recordings so that when we rehearse we should all be playing the same parts in the same places, but this isn't happening, because when we run through a song, someone might go into a verse when it should be a chorus, or the singer comes back in too soon before the solo has finished etc, etc...

Of course we all make mistakes, but because this is happening regularly, it indicates to me that they are not putting the same amount of work in as I am, I'm not the best musician in the band by any means, but I am the one who knows my part, as I have already said, they sometimes get annoyed when I insist we get it right in rehearsals, but when it comes to playing live, they are quite happy to rely on me to prompt them throughout the gig because they know that I learn't them correctly.

Some have said that even if you all learn your parts exactly, it still doesn't mean the song will sound ok because it depends on people's individual style of playing etc, and I tend to agree, but surely by having something to work from in the first instance, ie, the original recording, it must help as a guide to playing the song as a band.

[dmccombe7]

I guess in an ideal world i would like everyone to show up having learned their parts to perfection but i get some enjoyment from structuring a song to fit our band.
I've done the covers band where i had approx 30 songs to learn in 3 weeks without a rehearsal only to find out the week before that a large number were in different keys. I did it and played the 2 weekend gigs with tha band.
It was extremely hard work learning them but i enjoyed it to be honest but i couldn't keep up with the bands ever changing set list and 2-3 gigs a wekend and had to move on.
Without a rehearsal left me feeling that i was playing a jam session at times.
Once i agree a song and its structure i like it to be 100% perfect before doing a gig. That way i'm comfortable and can enjoy playing without worrying what's coming next in the song.

Dave

[Yank]

In my band, I play bass and sing background. Growing up I was the lead singer/drummer and have been in bands where I play rhythm guitar and sing. As a singer, I tend to think in terms of form, i.e. first verse, second verse, chorus, bridge, lead, last verse, chorus. Not every one thinks like this. I also write things down at practice i.e. key, endings, feel, arrangement, only to find something's changed next practice. When something has changed, I'll bring it up, but will roll with the new changes and mark them down. From many years of memorizing lyrics, I can easily memorize song structure, but at gigs you need to keep your antennae up and spin on a dime when things go south. Adapt or perish.

[TimR]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492164512' post='3278368']
...
[/quote]

As I said earlier, most musicians will be communicating and listening on a micro level and not nessacarily committing everything to memory.

So what's happening when you're performing is everyone is picking up on small queues. Sounds to me that the band are actually underrehearsed on the parts of tunes where problems are occurring.

No amount of practicing at home will fix this.

I've learned tunes note for note and when it comes to a band situation; maybe the bass line has to fit into a drum fill with a certain vocal pattern and if that fill or pattern isn't as per the original record, it throws everyone, or if the drummer plays the verse end fill in the middle of the chorus because he thinks it fits that can throw the vocals.

These are all micro differences in the tune that queue everyone.

This is why you rehearse. To learn these little bits, to add them in or decide you don't need them. It's not a case of everyone justbleadn the tune at home and it'll slot together.

I still think you need to make a careful note of which bits go wrong and practice those songs together. That's what we do.

[TimR]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1492168672' post='3278420']


Sorry, but I completely disagree. This may be the case in a first band where the individuals have never played live against each other, but this is a band that gigs and must have some degree of experience.

I really don't know what is difficult about learning the usual pub fare at home verbatim and turning up at rehearsal and playing them through 2/3 times to polish them.

I do not rehearse to learn. I learn at home. That's where the hard work is done.
[/quote]

The more experience you have of playing together the less you need to rehearse to learn those micro bits.

2/3 times for some bands. For other bands/songs you may not need any rehearsals and you can gig having learned the parts at home. For other bands and songs that are going to need different arrangements to cover missing instruments or sections of songs that are not straightforward need several rehearsals to get right.

It's not a black and white situation.

If people who normally play well together are getting some parts of some songs wrong it won't usually be because they haven't learned their parts properly.

[FinnDave]

In all of the bands I'm in, playing the songs like the originals is definitely not encouraged. In my primary gigging band (The Wirebirds) we play a lot of songs I have never heard the original of, and wouldn't want to. If a band strives to reproduce a song note for not, why not just put the CD on and mime? I think the only song for which I had to listen to the original bass line was 'White Rabbit' as the Jack Casady's bass playing is so prominent, but we haven't played that since we parted company with our female singer.

As for making mistakes, well we are all human, and cock ups happen. The main thing is to keep playing, 95% of the time the audience won't notice. A couple of gigs ago our vocalist sang the entire first verse of a completely different song to the one we were playing, only the band realised though! The audience only notices that sort of thing if the band stutters to a premature stop and looks awkwardly at each other. Learning to cover mistakes is much easier than learning to avoid them!

[markstuk]

I think the OP is wishing that his bandmates simply learnt the song structures correctly and were able to repeat them .. It's not too much to ask..

[TimR]

If you're playing as a dep there's a lot more eye contact, head nods and other communication going on.

I don't know about session playing but I'd guess there would be an MD and a specific arrangement for the whole band to learn.

[Trueno]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492173310' post='3278471']
If you're playing as a dep there's a lot more eye contact, head nods and other communication going on.

I don't know about session playing but I'd guess there would be an MD and a specific arrangement for the whole band to learn.
[/quote]

Yes... I've read interviews with session players... sometimes they're just given the dots and away they go.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492076764' post='3277674']
[font=Helvetica]As the title says, am I wrong in wanting to learn the set/songs properly?[/font]

[font=Helvetica]Nearly every band that I’ve been in, we decide on a setlist, or we agree to learn three or four new songs for the following week and I go away and learn them properly, but everyone else just brushes over the surface of the songs, and I end up having to tell them they are playing them wrong, which I hate doing because it obviously annoys them.[/font]

[font=Helvetica]My current band is not a band that’s puts our own take on songs, we are a band that plays the songs as per the original, because being a covers band, we feel the punters prefer them that way.[/font]

[font=Helvetica]I download the originals and put them in a Dropbox folder so everyone can work from the same versions, but when we get to the rehearsal room, they are all over the place with them, they seem happy to settle for mediocracy, and just say, “it’ll be alright on the night” which I hate, because I think it’s just laziness on their part, especially as they are all very good musicians.[/font]

[font=Helvetica]I am an average but very steady bass player, I work hard on the songs, I make sure I know the structures perfectly, I've played with three of them for a couple of years in other bands, and although it annoys them when I pull them up in rehearsals, they are perfectly happy to rely on me to guide them through the songs when we are playing live.[/font]

[font=Helvetica]To put you in the picture, my current band started in December, we decided on a setlist of thirty songs, and by the end of January I had lean’t them all, and can honestly say that I am ready to gig them, but we are now in April and collectively, we only have about fifteen that are ready, and [size=6]I’m getting more and more frustrated having to pay for rehearsals[/size] just to go over the same old songs week in, week out, just because the others aren’t bothering to put in the work.[/font]

[font=Helvetica]Is it me, am I too demanding, am I being unreasonable to expect them to want to get their fingers out and learn the songs so we can get out there gigging?[/font]

[font=Helvetica]Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy rehearsing, but surely rehearsals are for piecing the songs together, and I’m now at the point of making a big decision on whether I stay and probably carry on rehearsing songs I already know well for another six months or so, or do I look for a ready made band in need of a bass player who already know their set?[/font]

[font=Helvetica]BTW, these guys are all really nice people, but I’m just so frustrated with the attitude. [/font]
[/quote]

Surely you aren't paying the fees by yourself? If you are, that's something you could change to make it worth their while to turn up with the goods before hiring rooms.

I always ask how much the rooms cost after an audition with a band that is compatible. Unless I'm being taken for a mug I offer to chip in in a small way to show willing. I would never expect a free share in rehearsal room fees as a band member. It's just wrong.

[SpondonBassed]

[quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1492078922' post='3277712']
I think you may be the twin brother I never knew I had!

There is no excuse for this behaviour. The prep for rehearsals is done at home. [size=6]I do not want to turn up at a rehearsal I'm paying for to busk through a song that only half of us know.[/size]

I really don't think it's unreasonable to expect otherwise. Sure, there are going to be moments in every song where someone has interpreted a section slightly differently and that's fine, but to arrive not knowing the start, exact structure and ending of the version you're all supposed to be working from in a room that's costing you all money is bonkers. Tell them to get a grip or you're off to find something else.
[/quote]

Exactly. Busking belongs on the street. Even then you may require a licence.

[squire5]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1492077991' post='3277699']
They were never in a band together...
[/quote]

Yes they were.They were known as the 'Chuckle Brothers' over here. Not kidding.

[lojo]

The micro bits as we are calling them on this forum do matter , but the level to
Which they matter depends on the genre and the level of showmanship you are aiming for

In My 80s band , whilst everyone does good homework benefits greatly from sessions because we have to work out how to make certain songs sound good when we are only playing 1 keys and Guitar when there are more on the recording , often we can make great choices and other times we just can't get happy with it , regardless how well everyone knows it

However , depping playing covers band classics might not require any sessions at all

As someone said above though , people should learn the chords and structures before coming together

[Dan Dare]

You are certainly not wrong. You appear to have a pro' attitude and you are playing with people who don't. I think this problem comes from the self-taught nature of many players, who learned their stuff in isolation and never played in orchestras/ensembles, where arrangements were important and it was vital to sweat over getting a part right (because if you didn't, it would clash with what others were playing). Consequently, they can't see what all the fuss is about - they reckon if it's close enough, that'll do. In my experience, you won't change people like that. Best to move on and save yourself an ulcer.

[TimR]

But theatre pit work, ensembles and orchestras are completely different. You get given a part that has been specifically written to fit in a specific arrangement.

I was classically trained in this way and it will give you an ulcer if you try to replicate this in an informal band situation because modern production methods mean you just can't play a part as it is on the record and expect the band to work.

Sure it worked in the 60s when all guitar bands had the same line up but it doesn't now. Everyone has to be flexible.

This means learn the chords and the form and your line. But you'd better be prepared to move about a bit and in some cases a lot.

[Rich]

[quote name='RhysP' timestamp='1492077991' post='3277699']
They were never in a band together...
[/quote]
If they had, it would have ended up like this...

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMxSOiOWdvA[/media]

[skankdelvar]

Learning a song's basic structure / chords etc and sticking to the plan is about the most basic requirement for a covers band playing to an audience that anticipates familiarity with the material. In this context, [i]accidentally[/i] cocking up changes, bridges, endings etc is an absolute no-no.

Yes, in a different context like blues covers other rules may apply but unless the band has jointly agreed to pursue an improvisational approach there's no creative excuse for winging it.

I briefly worked with a guitarist and singer duo who sought a rhythm section. Every week the guitarist winged different arrangements while the singer stuck rigidly to the lyrics she was reading off her smart-phone. Neither of them listened to each other and each rehearsal was a total car crash. I lasted three weeks which is about as long as I'd last in the OP's band.

Let's be clear: people who play in a band but through laziness (or ego) can't be bothered to learn the arrangements should be lured to a deserted warehouse and shot in the face.
[color=#faebd7].[/color]

Edited April 14, 2017 by skankdelvar

[dmccombe7]

[quote name='skankdelvar' timestamp='1492189241' post='3278613']


Let's be clear: people who play in a band but through laziness (or ego) can't be bothered to learn the arrangements should be lured to a deserted warehouse and shot in the face.
[color=#faebd7].[/color]
[/quote]

No strong feelings there then

Dave

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1492194402' post='3278651']
No strong feelings there then
[/quote]

It's the only language they understand.

I mean, imagine a world where people turn up for rehearsals and actually know the songs and play the right thing at the right time. It's just a question of motivation

[gjones]

Get some gigs for the band. The thought that you might f*** it up, in front of an audience, usually helps to concentrate the mind of the lazy musician.

Edited April 15, 2017 by gjones

[acidbass]

You're with the wrong people. Don't compromise on quality, eventually you will be surrounded by the right musicians.

[blue]

[quote name='acidbass' timestamp='1492208292' post='3278759']
You're with the wrong people. Don't compromise on quality, eventually you will be surrounded by the right musicians.
[/quote]

Agreed,

And if they don't want to learn the songs, how motivated are they to gig.

There are plenty of gigging bands that want guys with your work ethic.

Blue

[blue]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1492206024' post='3278739']
Get a some gigs for the band.
[/quote]

Get some gigs for the band. Yeah, just like that, get some gigs, it's real easy. You just call a venue and say you have a band and they'll just book you right on the spot.

I think there's a lot more to it than;

"Get some gigs"

Blue

[thebrig]

[quote name='blue' timestamp='1492211522' post='3278776']
Get some gigs for the band. Yeah, just like that, get some gigs, it's real easy. You just call a venue and say you have a band and they'll just book you right on the spot.

I think there's a lot more to it than;

"Get some gigs"

Blue
[/quote]I have always been the one who gets the gigs even though I'm quite new to the area, and every other week after rehearsals I say to all the guys, "can you please try and get gigs in your area's as you know them better than me", of course they all say "ok", but I can honestly say that they never do, because when I repeat the request a couple of weeks later, they usually reply "oh yeah, I'll try", not "I've tried but without success".

I'm now about to put an advert out for a ready made band that needs a bass player, I will stay with these guys for a while, but I'm not going to be taken for granted anymore, if they can get the songs gig ready and get out and get some gigs then great, but I don't think it will happen unfortunately.