dmccombe7 Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492510208' post='3280764'] It's the failure to go away and learn the basic structure of the song that frustrates me the most, if there is say, an 8 bar intro followed by verse/chorus, verse/chorus, then a solo, then verse/chorus, outro, why is that so hard to get right? I'm not looking for everyone to play their parts exactly as the original, I just want them to get the structure right, the original recording is the basis of the whole band getting all the parts in the right places, even if it was an original song we wrote ourselves, we would still have a structure that we all agree to work from. [/quote] Yep for me that is the basic requirement for every member when they come into rehearsals. What i find is that the members that weren't keen on a particular song don't make the effort for that song but on the other hand the songs they specifically like or picked they will put the effort in. The band i'm in at the moment i've not selected any of the set list as its all new style of music for me and i took the attitude that because i didn't know the original musicians or majority of the songs i wanted to put in the extra effort to the point i'm the one laying down the original structure for the rest of the band and we then tweek that into what works for us. Its never gonna be perfect in most bands but you try to accept certain levels and work around that issue for a good end result without falling out with each other. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 (edited) [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492645205' post='3282026'] You are right, and although I might come across as being a bit impatient, the opposite is true, this has been going on for a very long time, I've not said too much in the past and just accepted it because they are all good guys, but I take your point that they have different ideas from me, so I guess it really is time to call it a day. [/quote] Rather than quit should you not lay your cards on the table and discuss your expectations with them in full especially as you point out they are all good guys. Maybe all they need is that little kick in the ass to motivate otherwise they will be looking at taking on a new bass player and starting from scratch again. By sound of it you've virtually made your mind up so nothing to lose and that way you have at least given these "good guys" the opportunity to buck up their ideas and get on with whats needed in a working band. Dave Edited April 20, 2017 by dmccombe7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492644832' post='3282025'] I happened to learn them in a month because I enjoy learning new material, I can happily go into a different room instead of watching TV and play through headphones to learn the songs, and now that I've learn't them, I can relax knowing that I only need to go through every now and then to keep up to speed with them, I didn't expect the rest of the guys to do the same, but we are now five months down the line, and they are still nowhere near knowing them well enough to gig, in fact, we probably only have about twelve to fifteen songs at most that everyone knows well enough to play live. [/quote] Ok. How often do you practice and what is the objective of each practice? How long have you agreed that it will take to be gig ready? If it's a start up learning 33 songs you need a solid workable plan and you also need to be very flexible on how the other members commit tunes to memory. As I said before, learning tunes to recordings is one thing, but it's when you play them in a band situation that they get cemented in. You have 16 songs, you can't run through them all in one night and go through new ones as well. You need to work out which tunes are 'passable' and put them to one side, play them once every couple of weeks. You need to pick the tunes that need work and play them a couple of times each week until everyone is up to speed. You need to pick two tunes to learn for next week. These are examples of the way I would approach it, I don't know the ability of the guys you are playing with, but you need to have some kind of plan. Go away and learn 33 song is not a workable plan for a start up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjim Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 No, you are not wrong wanting to learn the songs properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yank Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 Yes, you are wrong. Where would the Sex Pistols be if they had played "My Way" just like Frankie? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted April 20, 2017 Author Share Posted April 20, 2017 [size=4][quote name='TimR' timestamp='1492672122' post='3282095'] Ok. How often do you practice and what is the objective of each practice? How long have you agreed that it will take to be gig ready? If it's a start up learning 33 songs you need a solid workable plan and you also need to be very flexible on how the other members commit tunes to memory. As I said before, learning tunes to recordings is one thing, but it's when you play them in a band situation that they get cemented in. You have 16 songs, you can't run through them all in one night and go through new ones as well. You need to work out which tunes are 'passable' and put them to one side, play them once every couple of weeks. You need to pick the tunes that need work and play them a couple of times each week until everyone is up to speed. You need to pick two tunes to learn for next week. These are examples of the way I would approach it, I don't know the ability of the guys you are playing with, but you need to have some kind of plan. Go away and learn 33 song is not a workable plan for a start up. [/quote][/size][color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=2] [size=4]After our drummer from our old band through his toys out of the pram, myself, the guitarist, and the singer had a meeting on 30th November 2016 and decided to take a different route, we came up with a setlist there and then, and we agreed to get stuck into them and hopefully be up to gigging speed by the end of May 2017 (six months).[/size][/size][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=2] [size=4]We found a new drummer and we’ve rehearsed once a week since then, and last night was the 20th week that we have been working on them, and we only have about a dozen songs that are ready, that’s just over half a song a week, which in my opinion is a poor return for the time we’ve put in, and money we’ve paid out on the rehearsal space.[/size][/size][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=2] [size=4]I’m a believer of learning the songs away from rehearsals and then piecing them together, of course some songs don’t work too well and need a little bit of extra work done, or we might decide to drop them altogether, but as I said before, everyone should at least know the structure of the songs, obviously those with faded endings, we will have to work out the endings, which is no problem for me at all.[/size][/size][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=2] [size=4]Even if we had agreed to learn just two songs a week, our set should have been complete about a month ago, and we should now be polishing them all off and getting them ready to gig.[/size][/size][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=2] [size=4]The songs in our set are pretty much straightforward, and a good example of my frustration is that we have now run through such a simple song like “Tush” five weeks on the trot, we agreed to play it as per the original version with a double solo in the middle, and finish it with same stop as per the original, but the singer still came back in over the second part of the middle solo, and the drummer carried on playing at the end even though the rest of us stopped where we agreed to, surely we shouldn’t be messing up on such a basic song that we have played many times before.[/size][/size][/font][/color] [color=#000000][font=Helvetica][size=2] [size=4]Our first gig is on 3rd June 2017, at this rate there is no way we will have the songs ready, they might be happy to go out and put on a mediocre show, but I won’t.[/size][/size][/font][/color] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 (edited) That example sounds very minor. I would let it go and put it on the list of things for the drummer and singer to work on st home. Play the song through twice. If the same mistake happens twice then they need to work on it. Are you playing the songs from start to end each time, or stopping and rehearsing the bits that went wrong? I played with a band who would stop if a song went wrong and start again from the top. A complete waste of time. Running through tunes week after week is counter productive and people will just lose focus. I think you need to be a lot more smart in your rehearsals and objectives. Edited April 20, 2017 by TimR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimR Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 No gigs lined up. 33 songs to learn. No direction, no focus. All power to the Brig for learning 33 songs but turning up for 20 weeks playing 16 songs would probably tip me over the edge. I've no idea what the point of going over and over songs you have down roughly is if you haven't even got the bare bones of the other tunes down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebrig Posted April 20, 2017 Author Share Posted April 20, 2017 I've now quit the band, I've had a few pleas to reconsider, but as much as I love them all, I don't think anything will change, and I respect the fact that we all have different views on what makes a band work, so I will move on. I've wished them all the best, and hope that they find a replacement bass player soon so they can move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowdowner Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 Structure is everything - the audience know the structure if not every perfect note. Breaks, transitions, repeats... it's what makes the song... well... the song! If it's wrong everyone knows. Our band cares about the structure and the timing... everything else is creativity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 (edited) [quote name='dmccombe7' timestamp='1492671636' post='3282092'] Rather than quit should you not lay your cards on the table and discuss your expectations with them in full especially as you point out they are all good guys. Maybe all they need is that little kick in the ass to motivate otherwise they will be looking at taking on a new bass player and starting from scratch again. By sound of it you've virtually made your mind up so nothing to lose and that way you have at least given these "good guys" the opportunity to buck up their ideas and get on with whats needed in a working band. Dave [/quote] If they are really good guys, it's probably more of a can't learn the material in a timely manner than won't learn it issue. Blue Edited April 20, 2017 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 There will be others that will spend months of their time with bands and experience the same marginal results. Know what you want out of a band, observe everything to determine if the band has what you want. Whether it be merely fun get togethers in the basement or a full gigging schedule. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazzbass Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 [quote name='blue' timestamp='1492670069' post='3282076'] Is there a business reason for no covers or is it more of an idealogy? Blue [/quote] I've always played originals, but in the past we threw in covers to pad out the show. It leads to confusion. Audience member: Is that one of your originals? Singer: It depends on whether you liked it or not hehe Now, our songwriter is so prolific that we have more than enough originals,so we don't need the covers. Playing both is like being non-commital, playing only originals is a statement. It also means playing for no money to no people, we are OK with that in our old age hehe We are not snobs about covers though,we are toying with starting a covers band as well, one off shows doing one complete album....but that is a lot of work for just one show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 I feel the Brigs pain. I split with a band just over a year ago over just this, well for me. They got fed up with my nagging, probably with good reason. The down side was that it was a regularly gigging band and a lot of fun. My conclusion is that it wasn't laziness per se, just acomplete lack of self awareness. At rehearsals they were always really enthusiastic but glossed over mistakes, didn't want to discuss anything in detail, like how many bars there were in a line. what the actual chord was or on some occasions what the time signature was, tricky with the drums I thought. At the end of rehearsal and in the two days after they would get hyper enthusiastic and come up with four new songs for next week. Dozens of suggestions would be thrown out in the next couple of days. Somehow they would never find the time to learn the new songs. If you were lucky each would have had time to learn one but wih no communication they would turn up having learned different songs. We'd end up playing the originals in the rehearsal room or just running through our set yet again. The enthusiasm reigned supreme, 'sixty new songs by the end of the year' but we got to August and had only gigged one new song not on our NYE set list. I could go on but all the things in everything thebrig has talked about happened to us. In the end the guitarist who did learn his stuff at home and I tried to put some order in it but they could not change and in the end I was the villain of the piece and was pushed out after a big row. My point, if there is one is you have to balance being in a band with good people against the possibility you won't find better. They won't change because their world view and self image is different from yours. You have to decide to chill and go with it or leave. Apparently I'm not a chilled person. So yes, they should learn their stuff at home and practice before rehearsing, but they never will. You just have to decide if you can live with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmccombe7 Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 [quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1492756491' post='3282863'] I feel the Brigs pain. I split with a band just over a year ago over just this, well for me. They got fed up with my nagging, probably with good reason. The down side was that it was a regularly gigging band and a lot of fun. My conclusion is that it wasn't laziness per se, just acomplete lack of self awareness. At rehearsals they were always really enthusiastic but glossed over mistakes, didn't want to discuss anything in detail, like how many bars there were in a line. what the actual chord was or on some occasions what the time signature was, tricky with the drums I thought. At the end of rehearsal and in the two days after they would get hyper enthusiastic and come up with four new songs for next week. Dozens of suggestions would be thrown out in the next couple of days. Somehow they would never find the time to learn the new songs. If you were lucky each would have had time to learn one but wih no communication they would turn up having learned different songs. We'd end up playing the originals in the rehearsal room or just running through our set yet again. The enthusiasm reigned supreme, 'sixty new songs by the end of the year' but we got to August and had only gigged one new song not on our NYE set list. I could go on but all the things in everything thebrig has talked about happened to us. In the end the guitarist who did learn his stuff at home and I tried to put some order in it but they could not change and in the end I was the villain of the piece and was pushed out after a big row. My point, if there is one is you have to balance being in a band with good people against the possibility you won't find better. They won't change because their world view and self image is different from yours. You have to decide to chill and go with it or leave. Apparently I'm not a chilled person. So yes, they should learn their stuff at home and practice before rehearsing, but they never will. You just have to decide if you can live with that. [/quote] I can relate to much of this and its a balancing act. Lot depends on whether its a working band you want or like me its just a hobby and for fun altho we do take it seriously enough that we make some headway. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 not read everything but did read the first page, and i find i'm the same as the OP. songs get suggested we all enthusiastically agree to learn 3 for next practice, next practice rolls round and i'm the only one who has learnt them, eventually we get it together but it can be a bind, but they are nice guys and when it works it feels great. so like others have said it depends if you can live with it or not. Nothing wrong with wanting to do it right, you're playing covers so they should sound like the original so the punters know what you are playing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) [quote name='bazztard' timestamp='1492753132' post='3282846'] I've always played originals, but in the past we threw in covers to pad out the show. It leads to confusion. Audience member: Is that one of your originals? Singer: It depends on whether you liked it or not hehe Now, our songwriter is so prolific that we have more than enough originals,so we don't need the covers. Playing both is like being non-commital, playing only originals is a statement. It also means playing for no money to no people, we are OK with that in our old age hehe We are not snobs about covers though,we are toying with starting a covers band as well, one off shows doing one complete album....but that is a lot of work for just one show. [/quote] Understood, I keep forgetting originals bands don't haul and set up their own lights and sound playing 4 hour shows. Blue Edited April 21, 2017 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1492679829' post='3282185'] Really? I suppose it depends how much time you have on your hands, but I'm in the process of doing exactly that right now for a couple of gigs with one band. I might be doing it again for another band later in the year. All good fun and a great learning experience in my opinion. [/quote] We're all different. 64, been playing in bands since 1966. While I always have fun and still learning, I'm not in this for fun or a learning experience. Blue Edited April 21, 2017 by blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 [quote name='hiram.k.hackenbacker' timestamp='1492787486' post='3283256'] Yes, we're all different blue. The money is nice, but I do it primarily because I love learning and playing different music. Plus, I see learning a few new sets of music which are out of my comfort zone as a challenge. [/quote] Cool, me I'm also always learning and approaching exercises out of my comfort zone. However, for me those are things I do outside of my personal band experience. Learning and improving is always great regardless of where it comes from. The band experience is fun, but for me it's really a business and an income stream to pay bills. Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passinwind Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 [quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1492076764' post='3277674'] [font=Helvetica] I enjoy rehearsing, but surely rehearsals are for piecing the songs together, and I’m now at the point of making a big decision on whether I stay and probably carry on rehearsing songs I already know well for another six months or so, or do I look for a ready made band in need of a bass player who already know their set?[/font][font=Helvetica] [/font] [/quote] IMHO and IME it's not a binary choice. If I liked the current people enough I'd probably just do both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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