Is a compressor of any real value in fast rock music?

[Geddys nose]

[quote name='metaltime' post='317536' date='Oct 29 2008, 01:36 PM']i pl;ay metal and the bbe optostomp works really well for me. We play fast and i mean fast.[/quote]


+1 for the opto stomp for the money you can't get better.

[warwickhunt]

Here's a novel idea (and you owe me 50% of whatever savings you now make )... don't use one!

For 'some' people a compressor (or limiter) is a must but TBH for many of us it's something else to f*ck about with that may well suck some of our tone. (IMHO of course )

I do speak as one who has had compressors (built in and racked) some of which have cost small fortunes (I used one for live work out of the studio that I worked in and it was the biz) and I actually found that for my style of playing it robbed me of some of the subtleties and variations in dynamics that I needed. I'm not talking Jazz quartet either; rock/punk/funk/covers you name it! I wouldn't thank you if you gave me one now.

<edit>

and before you say anything, the limiter in my Thunderfunk has been tried, tested, switched out and then left well alone!

Edited November 20, 2008 by warwickhunt

[bluesparky]

I've got the Aphex punch factory too.
It is subtle, very subtle, almost to the point of not being there.
when i tried it out in the shop i tested it to it's extremes and had a noticeable effect on the sound.
The small size, impressive variety of power input options and the cool meter on it was also a selling point.
However, the known issue of the jack connections to the PCB is now raising it's ugly head and it intermittently drops out.
Not good, this would be VERY annoying if I didn't have my gigrig, but luckily i can easily switch around it mid-song without battering an eyelid.
So i'm now on the lookout for a good compressor too.

The [url="http://www.ovnilab.com/reviews/maxoncp9pro.shtml"]Maxon CP9 + pro [/url] seems to be getting amazing reviews everywhere, but few retailers seem to sell it., so i can't getting my grubby little mitts on one to try it out.
Has anyone else used one of these?

[Beedster]

Should the question not be 'what value is fast rock music?'
Only joking.
I had the Punch Factory and, given its reputation for subtlety, thought it ironically named in the extreme. I now have the Tech 21 Bass Compactor which plays rabid Rottweiler to Aphex's lilly-livered Poodle.
But I think we'd established that above anyway

[ben_eat_pie]

BTW poodles are scary, and fecking viscious!

I have an aphex punch factory - works a lot better with my acoustic guitar!
Don' think it was designed to be bass specific, and therefor this will compromise the quality of the sound produced!

Ben

[IncX]

one thing i noticed is that i had a better experience in terms of tone and playing effect with an Aphex Bass Xciter rather than an Aphex Punch factory... yes, they are apples and oranges, but both are subtle... its just you can hear one, and the other is invisible.

i am with warwick hunt RE compressor... you wont miss it when it isnt there, you will wonder what happened to your playing when it is there.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='Geddys nose' post='333377' date='Nov 20 2008, 08:05 PM']+1 for the opto stomp for the money you can't get better.[/quote]

And another vote for the BBE.
I had the same experience Clarky did with my PF. I think i kidded myself it was working but i really couldn't tell any difference other than a slight volume increase due to the level control.
Had the BBE for a few months now and it does a much better job of keeping my pick playing in check.

But i now realise i don't need it as my playing has a bit more control these days.

[OldGit]

[quote name='Hamster' post='315055' date='Oct 26 2008, 01:46 PM']It's not a bad pedal, but perhaps not for the style of music you play. The Trace Elliot Dual compressor might be a bit more of what you're looking for.[/quote]

+1 I went from Punch factory to teh TE dual band. Much happier, and I'm an Old Git

[OldGit]

[quote name='Buzz' post='316362' date='Oct 28 2008, 02:07 AM']You could always buy one of the DHA optical valve-based compressors: [url="http://www.davehallamps.co.uk/Products,%20VT1-BassCompressor.htm"]http://www.davehallamps.co.uk/Products,%20...sCompressor.htm[/url]

If you hunt through basschat they get rave reviews....but they're a pound short of £150.[/quote]


That's not a compressor in the same way as the TE dual or Punch factory.
I bought one of the first batch but it just didn't do what I expected a comp to do - as I'd been using onboard ones in Peavy gear.

Dave Hall explained that it's supposed to do somthing else which it does very well.
Fair enough but it was certainly not what I was after.

Then I got the TE dual.

[Kev]

[quote name='OldGit' post='348771' date='Dec 8 2008, 04:11 PM']That's not a compressor in the same way as the TE dual or Punch factory.
I bought one of the first batch but it just didn't do what I expected a comp to do - as I'd been using onboard ones in Peavy gear.

Dave Hall explained that it's supposed to do somthing else which it does very well.
Fair enough but it was certainly not what I was after.

Then I got the TE dual.[/quote]
i loved my old TE dual, but i found my aguilar preamp i had then clipped it even with the input really low

[Marcus]

Slightly different take.......

I have a punch factory (my 2nd) and I too have found it's very subtle...... however in my last band I used one with avariety of basses and amps and our sound guy could always tell when it was engaged !! Maybe the audience will get the benefit more than you stood 3 foot away.

for anyone unhappy with their punch factory, try listening through a good pair of headphones, the difference is much more pronounced

Regards

Mark

[51m0n]

In answer to the OP, if you are in anyway using overdrive then the compressor may be unnesessary since overdrive itself compresses dynamics.

On the other hand a really good compressor set up well for the player/song/style can really help either to level the output or to thicken up and add gobs of puch - entirely dependant on settings. Otherwise they wouldnt get used in studios.

Live is the same deal, used as an effect to add plenty of grunt you cant quite get that sound with eq or overdrive, used as a leveler you might well find you are helping out FOH, but the reasons for FOH compressing bass apply equally to stage volumes.

As for the speed you play making a compressor not work, thats just not the right speed of attack and release on the comp, a lot of pedal comps take a very average view of these settings in an effort to minimise the amount of controls, but frankly that just means that unless you play 'average' you arent going to get what you want from the pedal IMO and IME.

I recently got hold of a Focusrite Compounder for £150 inc P&P, and its a ridiculously good bit of kit for that money. I guarantee it could be set up to add masses of punch or just level out your signal a bit, regardless of how fast you're picking. Of course the downside its you need to know what you are doing to get it set up right....

[alexclaber]

Unless you're specifically using compression as an obvious effect I would say that compression is best kept for the studio only. With good technique, a good instrument and good amplification then compression is pretty redundant live. Saying that if your technique is less than ideal, your amp short of output or your bass lacking in resonance/fatness/thickness to its tone then compression can help mitigate some of these problems. The biggest issue I see with overuse of compression live is it becoming a substitute for good dynamic control from your hands.

Power amp limiters are a completely different case and are an excellent way of getting another ~3dB of output from your rig with little change to your tone.

Alex

[Clarky]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='351749' date='Dec 11 2008, 01:39 PM']if your technique is less than ideal[/quote]

Therein lies my problem!

[cheddatom]

I don't understand why anything would be useful in the studio but not live. I set up my pedals to do exactly what I do in the studio, live. This means my sound is exactly the same as in the studio, which IMHO is a very good thing. Why would it be a bad thing?

Why would compression be redudant when used in a live context as opposed to useful in the studio? Surely you're still listening to a bass sound through your ears?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='351755' date='Dec 11 2008, 01:46 PM']Why would compression be redudant when used in a live context as opposed to useful in the studio? Surely you're still listening to a bass sound through your ears?[/quote]

Because the useable dynamic range of a hi-fi is a fraction of that of live music.

Alex

[cheddatom]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='351846' date='Dec 11 2008, 03:16 PM']Because the useable dynamic range of a hi-fi is a fraction of that of live music.

Alex[/quote]


Ahhhhh, makes sense.

EDIT: But I suppose i'm one of those types who loves a really compressed bass sound. I doubt I have dodgy technique due to the amount of acoustic practice I do, but i'm certainly not technically brilliant. I wonder how you know if you just like compression, or if you're just sh*t with playing dynamics.

Edited December 11, 2008 by cheddatom

[alexclaber]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='351856' date='Dec 11 2008, 03:31 PM']Ahhhhh, makes sense.

EDIT: But I suppose i'm one of those types who loves a really compressed bass sound. I doubt I have dodgy technique due to the amount of acoustic practice I do, but i'm certainly not technically brilliant. I wonder how you know if you just like compression, or if you're just sh*t with playing dynamics.[/quote]

Doing the production side of things as well I've learnt a lot about the importance of compression in getting a good recording for any non-acoustic genres. Nothing wrong with liking a really compressed bass sound, works for many people. As you say, as you practice acoustically (as do I) your control of dynamics is probably pretty decent. Technicaly brilliance as a bassist is far more about control of tone, dynamics and timing than any amount of impressively mad soloing skillz but sadly few people understand that! But if you were to always play and practice with compression your dynamic control could be appalling and then when recorded you'd notice that although the dynamics of your notes may be compressed and thus even enough, the tone wouldn't be. Easy to forget that if you play a note hard and then play a note softly that even if you compress them both so the note envelope is the same they won't sound the same.

Alex

[51m0n]

I disagree Alex.

I have pretty good technique - not the best but I dont have the time I once had. Dynamics are no problem, however I like to use alot of different techniques in the same groove/song etc, and certain techniques, no matter how strong your hands are, are quieter than others.

For instance if you go from slapping to tapping to fingerstyle, the tapping is almost guaranteed to appear quietest, part of it is the fact you struggle to generate the same amount of string movement, and part of it is the nature of the envelope of the sound - the attack is nowhere near as great, so there is a psychoacoustic part to this as well.

A well set up compressor can even this out just enough for you live to always be heard in a mix without destroying your dynamics, even a cheap old two knob DOD compressor will manage that. Compressors will also allow you to modify the envelope to a certain extent bringing out the attack of the tapping more. Followed by a limiter you can prevent the greater attack of the more ferocius techniques (slapping etc) from totally overpowering everything.

Getting a compressor set up just right to cover this gamut of techiques is a proper tricky task if you rely on it too much, but if you take the approach that its to help you, and you practice largely without the crutch it can seriously help get the message across to an audience...

Maybe I'm just a nutter for using such disparate techniques in a single groove though

[escholl]

[quote name='51m0n' post='352665' date='Dec 12 2008, 01:06 PM']Maybe I'm just a nutter for using such disparate techniques in a single groove though [/quote]

nope, not alone, I do it too haha.


compressors serve a wide range of useful functions -- hence why i use one -- and don't cover up bad technique nearly as much as a distortion or delay can.

why do you think guitarists use distortion and delay so much?

[alexclaber]

[quote name='51m0n' post='352665' date='Dec 12 2008, 01:06 PM']Maybe I'm just a nutter for using such disparate techniques in a single groove though [/quote]

Or maybe you're just a nutter!

I should have added a caveat regarding tapping - I'd forgetten it exists... It would be interesting to hear other examples of where compression works an an effective tool in a live situation (other than for bodging a fix for my nemesis 'Mr Poor Dynamics').

Alex

[M4L666]

[quote name='escholl' post='352790' date='Dec 12 2008, 03:15 PM']nope, not alone, I do it too haha.


compressors serve a wide range of useful functions -- hence why i use one -- and don't cover up bad technique nearly as much as a distortion or delay can.

why do you think guitarists use distortion and delay so much? [/quote]
Distortion works the other way too. Muddying up your sound, you have to make it really clear what you're playing... it varies.

[escholl]

[quote name='M4L666' post='353053' date='Dec 12 2008, 07:49 PM']Distortion works the other way too. Muddying up your sound, you have to make it really clear what you're playing... it varies.[/quote]

surely that only makes it easier to hide mistakes?

[escholl]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='352882' date='Dec 12 2008, 04:36 PM']It would be interesting to hear other examples of where compression works an an effective tool in a live situation (other than for bodging a fix for my nemesis 'Mr Poor Dynamics').[/quote]

depending on how it's set, compression will add sustain or give the illusion of a punchier sound.

[51m0n]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='352882' date='Dec 12 2008, 04:36 PM']Or maybe you're just a nutter!

I should have added a caveat regarding tapping - I'd forgetten it exists... It would be interesting to hear other examples of where compression works an an effective tool in a live situation (other than for bodging a fix for my nemesis 'Mr Poor Dynamics').

Alex[/quote]

Well tapping does in fact exist, and in the case of a rock track with a mix of fingerstyle and tapping where you dont want the fingerstyle to be buried a well set up compressor can do absolute wonders - honest! Especially live as you cant ride faders like you can in a studio (well thats what compressors were designed to deal with anyway).

I've experienced this, I used to play in a pretty fast avante garde rock/punk/funk band and we did a track with a ridiculously fast ostinato for the verse b-line that was tapped that went into a fingerstyle chorus. The band comprised of two drummers (one was more of a percussionist, but tended to use a lot of found percussion including an oil drum and aluminium base ball bat ) , two guitarists, and a singer/flutist lady. It was very very very loud, and very fast, and the dynamics were 'loud', 'louder', 'loudest known thing in the universe'. The only way to get the tapping part to work was using some compression, otherwise it just disappeared. I've got a very poor recording of a gig in about '96 at the Concorde (I) in Brighton somewhere. If I can find it I'll try and figure out how to post a bit (unless it is too dreadful to admit too ) Its pretty in your face stuff though!